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Post by julien on Jul 25, 2009 14:40:01 GMT -6
Hi Coaches,
The more I learn about that game, the more I understand that my "Football Culture" is too weak... And I do not find a "History of Football" book or something like that...
May be some old schooler could help me.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 25, 2009 20:18:43 GMT -6
Check out Ted Seay. He is a football historian extraordinaire.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 25, 2009 20:41:51 GMT -6
There are some historians in every coaching staff. Just sit back and wait for them to take over a drill and you can hear the entire history or cultural points of certain aspects of the game (rather than getting kids in and out of the drill as quickly as possible).
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Post by coachguy83 on Jul 26, 2009 16:55:04 GMT -6
I don't really know of any all encompassing history books out there, but a really good book that will team you a lot about the early history of the game is Carlisle vs. Army. I don't know who the author is off hand because I let one of my assistants borrow it, but I learned a ton from reading it.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 26, 2009 20:47:57 GMT -6
Football history is a broad subject that I've done a lot of research on certain aspects of. Almost all my research was done before the Internet era, in libraries.
Julien, probably you should explain what aspect of football's history you're most interested in. For instance, for all the reading I did, I couldn't tell you the names of many persons or institutions involved with the details, because for my purposes all the development of the game might as well have been done by a small group of obscure people playing with each other a large number of times over a long period in Mongolia. (I'm not much of a "people person".) I exaggerate that, but I hope you get the idea. There are other people who could tell you all about records and statistics and where to find them, but those don't much interest me. Nor am I likely to remember many dates closer than approximately, though I do have a few years memorized.
I'll give you a little tidbit you may not have known close to home: It's generally believed that the "game for 13" (known in the English speaking countries as Rugby League) became popular in France because Rugby Union was denigrated as British during World War 2. However, there are some who disagree and think that other coincidental factors were responsible.
Here's another: American football became 11-a-side in 1880 as a compromise to satisfy the players from Yale U., while those of other schools wanted to continue to play 15s, which had been adopted as the number in 1876 because it was widely practiced that way in Rugby Union -- although the actual rules of that game still didn't specify the number of players. The width of the field was reduced in close proportion to the number of players.
Another trivium: NCAA football rules for one season abolished the fair catch (1950), then restored it the next year.
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Post by julien on Jul 27, 2009 6:46:16 GMT -6
Football history is a broad subject that I've done a lot of research on certain aspects of. Almost all my research was done before the Internet era, in libraries. Julien, probably you should explain what aspect of football's history you're most interested in. Thanks Bob, I want to know more about about how the game has developped (first single wing, then Pro I etc.). Evolution of X's & O's, rules that kind of things... I also apreciate the tidbits.
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Post by dubber on Jul 27, 2009 8:23:59 GMT -6
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_American_footballA good place to start. Here are the biographies/moments in history I would check out, as the pertain to football: Teddy Roosvelt (made football get organized) Pop Warner (innovator par excellance) 1940 Chicago Bears championship game (indirect snap bursts onto scene) Sid Gillman Tiger Ellison Bill Walsh of course, that list is NOT extensive
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 27, 2009 9:00:31 GMT -6
I want to know more about about how the game has developed (first single wing, then Pro I etc.).
Evolution of X's & O's, rules that kind of things... homersmith.net/?page_id=30
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 27, 2009 12:53:20 GMT -6
I want to know more about about how the game has developped (first single wing, then Pro I etc.). Evolution of X's & O's, rules that kind of things... The trouble with a lot of what you can read as individual sources about that is the tendency of the writers to assume that certain things are more recent and new than they actually are. It helps if you can get old books about things that might have been new then (but probably weren't). The trouble is obtaining these books in France. Spalding's Foot Ball Guide, a very informative annual, has been archived by the New York Public Library and by the Nat'l Collegiate Athletic Ass'n. NYPL's collection is a little more complete. By now they may have been microfilmed, but I don't know about digital availability. In its pages you can read the complaint that football injuries had been exaggerated in the general press -- for instance, that when a child chased a football into the street and was run over by a truck, that counted as a "football fatality" (true story, I suppose). One surprisingly good history is a book, Big Leagues by Stephen Fox, which is labeled as a history of American professional sports, but whose chapter on football especially is good on early development of the amateur game. Until I read it, I had no idea there was any relationship between early American football and baseball. However, Fox set it in the context of the rivalry for popularity in both cases between versions of the games played in and around New York and what was played elsewhere. A source which has been criticized for inaccuracy a lot was a book titled How Games Began by an Australian clergyman who'd also written How It Began. I don't remember the author's name. An example of the short time perspective is the ignorance by many sources of early importance of the "under center" "T" formation. By the late 1880s, despite -- and in some cases because of -- rules differences with later versions of the game -- a diamond or straight T had become the standard formation on offense -- and the diamond T was used as well on defense. And even those who do point that out still exaggerate the degree to which the T was eclipsed by other formations between 1910 and 1950. For the early history of American and Canadian football, it also helps to know some things about the history of rugby football. The Football Rules Committee that met at Princeton in 1876, predecessor of the NCAA (from which all American football rules ultimately derive), adopted a version of rugby just a year and a half before the Rugby Union altered their laws to require that the ball be put back in play immediately after a tackle. So what's not realized by many observers is how much the difference between rugby and American and Canadian football today was due to a change in rugby.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 27, 2009 21:25:29 GMT -6
This is going to sound nuts, but sometimes I dream about being able to travel back into time and coach a 1930's football team and run some form of modern offense: The West Coast, The I, The Double Tight Zone Running game, or the Air Raid Spread. Heck even the Delaware Wing-t would be a "modern offense.
What do you think the game would be like today, if someone were to do this?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 28, 2009 3:19:55 GMT -6
What do you think the game would be like today, if someone were to do this? What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub? ;D ;D
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 28, 2009 3:23:38 GMT -6
And even those who do point that out still exaggerate the degree to which the T was eclipsed by other formations between 1910 and 1950. [SIGH] OK, Robert, I'll bite. Between 1920 and 1940, what percentage of high school, college and NFL teams used the T, and what's your reference for this information?
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Post by td4tc on Jul 28, 2009 6:49:57 GMT -6
coach jerry campbell on his site is a real historian and has written some very nice summary articles on there.personally i want to read about the future of football.
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Post by spartancoach on Jul 28, 2009 9:22:44 GMT -6
This is going to sound nuts, but sometimes I dream about being able to travel back into time . . . Yes, it sounds nuts.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 28, 2009 9:47:14 GMT -6
What if Spartacus would have just traveled across the Rubicon and into Gaul and would not have listened to his buddies to return back down the peninsula and given all their money to pirates? No aviation skills would have been needed.
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 28, 2009 20:40:41 GMT -6
Football for player and spectator By Fielding Harris Yost bit.ly/18RCQ9 American football by Walter Camp bit.ly/7oelR Football, the American intercollegiate game by Parke Hill Davis bit.ly/16t4zI
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 28, 2009 21:11:44 GMT -6
Football for player and spectator By Fielding Harris Yost bit.ly/18RCQ9 American football by Walter Camp bit.ly/7oelR Football, the American intercollegiate game by Parke Hill Davis bit.ly/16t4zIThis is great, and, somehow, even better because I imagine Al Bundy from your avatar -- helmet and all -- being the one delivering this wisdom. ...Though the Davis book's intro does seem a bit of a stretch where he says that football was played in antiquity because a quote from the bible saying "and turn thee and toss him the ball" and then something from Homer's Odysssey, followed by the greek definition of the word "harpaston." Oh well, it's still the best game.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 28, 2009 22:20:01 GMT -6
[SIGH] OK, Robert, I'll bite. Between 1920 and 1940, what percentage of high school, college and NFL teams used the T, and what's your reference for this information? A lot more than the percentage that used the single wing between 1980 and 2000. I never did get such data as percentages (although there might've been a reported survey in Spalding's FAIK), but I know that even single wing teams were often multiple and would shift from T and snap some plays from it. Even the Chi. Bears were already using T in the period immediately preceding the time when not-so-careful sources say they installed it. More careful observers just point out they made refinements to their existing T formation and dropped most of their single wing plays. I was hoping to find something in L.H. Baker, Football: Facts & Figures (1945), but no such luck. Somewhere around here from that same era I have a history of Harvard U. football that might have something. But I've also read recollections of old timers who played in the time in question that mention the T as having been used some of the time.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 29, 2009 2:02:52 GMT -6
Even the Chi. Bears were already using T in the period immediately preceding the time when not-so-careful sources say they installed it. More careful observers just point out they made refinements to their existing T formation and dropped most of their single wing plays. Halas, like Stagg, never dropped the T -- and both were in Chicago for many years. Ralph Jones did particularly well with the T in the early 30's. Shaugnessy only added to the base offense that the Bears were already running when he consulted with and for Halas in the late 30's. ...but they were in a very small minority during that period.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 29, 2009 6:51:43 GMT -6
...because a quote from the bible saying "and turn thee and toss him the ball..." I knew it...Jesus Christ was a Double Wing quarterback!
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 29, 2009 10:23:20 GMT -6
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Jul 30, 2009 6:32:42 GMT -6
Check out the Bunch formation on page 58 of Haughton's 1922 book...he calls it a Wide formation.
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Post by coryell15 on Jul 30, 2009 8:35:46 GMT -6
Check out the Bunch formation on page 58 of Haughton's 1922 book...he calls it a Wide formation. Yup and the primary objective of it seems to be to facilitate sweeps and pitching to the bunch side.... I particularly like how on 59 he discusses the "50 year battle between offense and defense".... man I love this game.
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Post by coryell15 on Jul 30, 2009 8:50:22 GMT -6
This is going to sound nuts, but sometimes I dream about being able to travel back into time and coach a 1930's football team and run some form of modern offense: The West Coast, The I, The Double Tight Zone Running game, or the Air Raid Spread. Heck even the Delaware Wing-t would be a "modern offense. What do you think the game would be like today, if someone were to do this? all offenses are predicated on man's attempt to conquer the geometry of the 30 and 300 foot battle.... You'd have a serious problem getting the players to accept "air it out" in the early years depending on level and prior to 1906 your use of the forward pass could have relied on the referee's coin toss on legality. After it was adopted to force defenses to spread out and cut down on fatalities it was a game changer even in its "neanderthal form". St. Louis was "the greatest show on grass" before it was the greatest show on turf.... their QB had a game where he completed 8/10 for 4 TDs.... I think sometimes we fall prey to being too wrapped up in the packaging of the pass game to appreciate the historic offenses simplicity and utility... Ted found the bunch I am betting you could find the double slot and there is a pretty good chance the ace is as old as the twenties.... Primary thing is you'd have the players of the era and that would likely lend itself to mismatches, finding the weak link was done well by the period coaches.... Schmidt was the Don Coryell of his day.... anyway a funny exercise internally but maybe not as stark a difference as we would think.... SpreadAttack's work on the "NFL Offense" at SmartFootball sort of makes me pine for the past when offense was more diversified and you could see real differences in philosophy from the late 60s to the late 90s things started merging into "one philosophy many approaches"...
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 30, 2009 11:01:47 GMT -6
Check out the Bunch formation on page 58 of Haughton's 1922 book...he calls it a Wide formation. What's old is new again....
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