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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2009 10:56:19 GMT -6
While no one wants to destroy or hinder their own players (counter productive to coaching), often times we do. What are some of the things you've witnessed, done, or have heard about that directly diminish a player's drive to succeed?
Sometimes the best things to learn are the things NOT to do.....
We mean well, but there may be times when we unknowingly sap production from our team via the words we say, the way we treat people, or how we 'coach'.
A few off the top of my head are; Talking about how much a player sucks: not challenging or pressuring a kid to get better, but just berating his abilities in off-hand comments, that his team mates buy into (the real issue). The player will find himself alienating himself from the staff and his team mates (see the third example) in a vicious-cycle of defeatest attitude. Best player excuse here directly avoiding challenging a player to develop past himself or accepting flaws simply because he's just better than everyone else (therefore, even with mistakes, the kid is better than whats behind him). This emotional coddling inhibits self-pressure and growth. Deliver all emotion, and no substance : hyping up a drill or responsibility through emotional transference (yelling and screaming), but not providing a clear direction in which to do accomplish what you want. "Throw Harder" / "Block somebody" come to mind.....telling the kid to improve his performance but not explaining HOW he can go about doing it, causing him to further doubt himself and begin sharing your frustration with him (only causing more errors for the player).
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Post by eaglemountie on Oct 23, 2009 11:07:08 GMT -6
Demoralizing a kid for a poor performance of something he has yet to be taught. Coached for a guy that continuously did this then would kick kids out of practice for firing back at him about not understanding what needs to be accomplished.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 23, 2009 11:10:09 GMT -6
I have seen an oline coach just make little tiny comments, faces etc..about an OC that just destroyed a team..i feel this destroyed the players because they lost confidence in what we were trying to accomplish
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Post by rcole on Oct 23, 2009 11:21:33 GMT -6
I've seen the first one, demoralizing a kid, over and over in my career. Its like some coaches don't have anything else in their tool box, just a hammer. And no matter how the kids "should" respond to it, or how "we" responded to it 20 to 40 years ago, it does not work with 95% of players today...so some of us just keep doing what does not work over and over and have the nerve to bitch about how the kids don't respond to it. This subject is one of my pet peeves. I have more to say on the subject BUT grades are due at 4:00. Gotta go be a productive professional.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Oct 23, 2009 11:41:50 GMT -6
I've got a cousin who's a soph in high school at a football crazy school with a great tradition. At 15, he's 6'3" 190 lbs and runs a 4.5 without any training. He was the soccer team's MVP as a freshman on a team who made a substate run.
The coaches at his school have BEGGED him to come out and play football but he refuses because his middle school coach hit him so hard with #1 and #3 at the age of 11 that he still feels bad over it. He says he just doesn't want to put up with that abuse anymore. I honestly can't blame him after watching the guy run a practice once. It's a shame.
I'm not big on yelling at players, especially at young kids, because of my cousin and kids like him. I saw so many talented athletes I grew up with get burned out on football and quit at the age of 14 because of that.
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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2009 11:51:32 GMT -6
here is another one
Demanding immediate production with no investment prodding a kid into loading up the bar with plates, but does not have the motor skills developed to perform a squat. Sure, its pussified to have anything less than 225lbs on the rack, but if we haven't taught how to breathe, stand, sit, and explode (contract)....we end up cultivating an unsurmountable fear and trepidation to a major building block of success. You have to crawl before you can walk, and many times we will put kids in positions to have to be masters of 4-5 different skill sets, without affording them the time to gain mastery in one.
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Post by gunrun on Oct 23, 2009 12:03:38 GMT -6
Deliver all emotion, and no substance [/b]: hyping up a drill or responsibility through emotional transference (yelling and screaming), but not providing a clear direction in which to do accomplish what you want. "Throw Harder" / "Block somebody" come to mind.....telling the kid to improve his performance but not explaining HOW he can go about doing it, causing him to further doubt himself and begin sharing your frustration with him (only causing more errors for the player). [/quote] Good topic. It is frustrating to hear coaches who don't teach players how to do something. Take blocking, for example. Effective coaching is not yelling louder and louder at the player to "Block him! Can't you block him?!! What the $^$#@ is wrong with you?!!" Poor coaches do this to deflect the blame from their inability to teach the player. The player would love to block that guy, but he must first be taught how. Unfortunately, it's easier to blame the kid than it is to really examine our teaching ability. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 23, 2009 12:20:49 GMT -6
Sometimes others destroy them before you ever get ahold of them:
letting them be captains based purely on athleticism or who their daddy is
letting them start every game even though they frequently miss practice
letting them play when they have not done their school work or have been in trouble in school
not correcting them for poor technique because "its working"
allowing them to talk back to coaches
allowing them to bully other players, looking the other way
I could go on.
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Post by struceri on Oct 23, 2009 12:21:18 GMT -6
I hate it when our OC jumps all over our Wr's when they drop the ball. His standard line is "CATCH THE BALL!!" I don't think I have met a WR who has intentionally dropped the ball yet
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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2009 12:26:42 GMT -6
all good ones (good stuff, tdmaker)
I would echo jgordon's comments....sometimes those are bigger ways to destroy the entire team (openly question / show lack of confidence in what the staff is trying to do). Its amazing how big of an impact that really does have on the kids and how they view the football experience.
I film our freshmen games for them and last week, got to check out our opponent's freshmen HC trying to herd cats while his "side kick" would dress down each kid at every opportunity. One funny point was that he pulled a DB out after one play just to tell him "you sorry-a** pu**y.....if I wanted a guy to not make plays, I'd put this guy" (pointing to another kid on the sideline)....wow! Double-whammy.........completely destroying TWO players with one comment....brilliant
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Post by phantom on Oct 23, 2009 12:39:45 GMT -6
all good ones (good stuff, tdmaker) I would echo jgordon's comments....sometimes those are bigger ways to destroy the entire team (openly question / show lack of confidence in what the staff is trying to do). Its amazing how big of an impact that really does have on the kids and how they view the football experience. I film our freshmen games for them and last week, got to check out our opponent's freshmen HC trying to herd cats while his "side kick" would dress down each kid at every opportunity. One funny point was that he pulled a DB out after one play just to tell him "you sorry-a** pu**y.....if I wanted a guy to not make plays, I'd put this guy" (pointing to another kid on the sideline)....wow! Double-whammy.........completely destroying TWO players with one comment....brilliant Boy, the great ones make it look easy. |
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Post by phantom on Oct 23, 2009 13:02:04 GMT -6
A few years ago we lost a potentially good CB because we forgot that you can't treat all of the players the same regardless of psychological makeup or position. Mentally, a CB is generally not the same as a DL. They're exposed out there and tend to have fragile psyches.
The kid who I mentioned had started as a junior and was a good athlete who had overall played pretty well. He had been burned deep in a couple of gales late in the season. All through the offseason our DL coach rode him about it, nicknaming him "Toast". Long story short the kid ended up academically ineligible and "forgot" to enroll in summer school. I'm not blaming the DL coach- none of the rest of us ever said anything about it. It did teach us a lesson, though.
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Post by Yash on Oct 23, 2009 13:05:12 GMT -6
I completely understand these. I am not a fan of the ream and scream coaching tactics. I hate when I hear a guy on our sidelines yell "Hit someone", really just anyone? Because if we would hit the guy carrying the ball more often we wouldn't be 4-5.
We have coaches who call our players "Stupid sons of B******" I love the guy, but you just can't do that to kids. More coaching, less yelling. I've really stresed to myself, I need to look at why it didn't work and fix the exact reason instead of just yelling you missed your block. Why did you miss your block, becuase your feet didn't move because you didn't take the proper angle, those things, Coach not blindly criticize.
You get what you coach.
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Post by bouncingboredom on Oct 23, 2009 16:49:02 GMT -6
... I hate when I hear a guy on our sidelines yell "Hit someone", really just anyone? Because if we would hit the guy carrying the ball more often we wouldn't be 4-5....... For some reason this had me in tears. ;D Good point though. |
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 23, 2009 17:22:26 GMT -6
I'm also not a fan of the non-technique-specific reflexive-shouting. Our WR coach has a bad, bad case of this and it drives me crazy to see a kid, who is clearly clearly not doing a good job WATCHING the ball, drop the pass and hear him shout "FOCUS!". Like the earlier poster said, I'm certain that there aren't many WRs who drop the ball on purpose, so it's gotta be we haven't coached him well enough to do it.
One I'm big on is holding a grudge when a player does something wrong in-game. I do my best not to do it, but I see it frequently and I just don't get the logic that they willfully did the wrong thing, so it must be that they didn't know better or couldn't do it. Getting and staying peeved at them does nothing except excuse us from our responsibility to put them in a position to get it done.
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Post by pantherfb10 on Oct 23, 2009 17:41:29 GMT -6
Nothing has pissed me off more in all my years involved with this sport then nepotism and favoritism. I know we all have the kids that get on our nerves and the kids we like. But I do my best to give everyone PT and treat them all as equals. Because in my prior expierience, I have seen that play out in two ways. One is nepotism. Watch a youth football game, usually 75% of QBs are the coaches son, and they wil never play the position once the dad isnt by their side. When I was in 6th grade I played behind a god awful QB. Dads kid. The entire team wanted me in there, because this kid couldnt throw a ball more than 10 yards downfield, and didnt want to play the game. I always outshone him when I had my oppurtinities and wound up starting the next year on another team, we pummeled my old coaches team 42 6. I have always held resent for him to not giving me a shot. In HS, as a backup Soph qb on JV, we had 2 qbs. One was about 6 2 205 pounds could throw a football 65 yards, mobile, but was a troublemaker and often "drew" his own plays in the huddle(Kid you not). The other QB, 5 foot 7 160 pounds at a 4A school could only throw about 40 but smarter with the ball. Dad is the richest man in the area. Buys accomadations for the school, and gets the kid the job. Kid gets hurt halfway through the year. Backup throws for 1350 yards and 13 TD in 6 games. For the playoffs he is on the bench, and daddys boy throws 4 ints.Pissed the hell out of the entire team. We also had a player who was a god gifted athlete, but screwed around got into a lot of trouble had bad grades a team cancer, who was always given a reprieve while his backup who was the hardest working kid on the team sat down. Not meaning to rant, but that s**** gets me mad
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Post by cc on Oct 23, 2009 21:30:03 GMT -6
Man I just don't get that. I get on some kids and I need to be more positive but name calling is just not called for. How can you get paid for this ? You do that in another job and it's abuse / harrassment...
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Post by rbush on Oct 23, 2009 22:15:34 GMT -6
My dad told me this story about his playing days and it's always stuck with me. My dad was a stand-out sprinter, running the fastest 200 time in the state his senior year, regardless of class. But during his freshman year of football his coach regularly had him going against seniors in tackling drills. By his own admission he became contact shy and never became much of a player. It drives me nuts to see a coach try to "toughen up" a player who has clearly never been taught how to tackle/block/hit etc.
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Post by coachks on Oct 23, 2009 22:46:35 GMT -6
I think screaming/yelling/undressing a player has a very definite purpose and is, at some level, a neccessity. At some point during the season, alignment issues, blown assignments, stupid penalties and so forth become an issue of focus, complacency and laziness. When the kids have proven they can perform a technqiue, know the front/play ect. and they screw it up as a matter of effort (usually during practice).
I also think, to an extent, the players expect to be yelled at (movies, parents, ect...) and when they don't, they may not understand something was wrong. Usually, yelling also serves as a message for the rest of the team as well, and they need to see a player who is playing poorly get called out to create accountability.
I'm not endorsing verbal assault, personal attacks and degrading players. More that, at some point, a "forceful correction" is a neccessary tool
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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2009 23:18:36 GMT -6
Maybe this is or isn't a 'competitive killer', but I would also offer the guy(s) that yank kids in and out of games.
Either to just ball them out (see above)
Or to put studs in their spot who never practice at that position. I get it, I understand why you'd do it, but to me it smacks of desperation and teaches the player being yanked that even when he does nothing wrong, he's still not good enough (we don't trust him.....and neither should the other players). Either the player can do the job or he can't
** ps - I've got nothing against getting in a player's face and confronting them or pressuring them. I am against senseless rage/frustration that kills a player's (competitive) spirit.
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 24, 2009 0:12:26 GMT -6
My dad told me this story about his playing days and it's always stuck with me. My dad was a stand-out sprinter, running the fastest 200 time in the state his senior year, regardless of class. But during his freshman year of football his coach regularly had him going against seniors in tackling drills. By his own admission he became contact shy and never became much of a player. It drives me nuts to see a coach try to "toughen up" a player who has clearly never been taught how to tackle/block/hit etc. THIS. OHMYGOD THIS. I personally feel that our program does a terrible job preparing kids to physically make contact with other players and it is reflected at all levels. Gotta teach 'em the small steps first. |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 24, 2009 16:06:20 GMT -6
I've seen all of the things many of you have described, but what really bugs me is when coaches FLAT OUT DON'T COACH!!!
Coached with a DL guy a fews years back and our DEs had a rough season; they couldn't get off of the ball, they didn't get their hands on the OL, they didn't fight pressure, they had no idea how to take on a trap, they blew contain all the time because they couldn't get off of the ball and fight. The DL guy SCREAMED at them all freaking year... Just tore them down all year.. Heard alot of 'JUST GO BE AND ATHLETE!!'
Funny thing was HE never taught them how to do the things he asked of them. During INDY periods, he'd have them hitting the sleds the whole time on a friggin snap count, not on movement. They didn't even learn how to take on half of a man with the drill; they were striking the middle of the sled....
During inside run and team time, the DEs would do something wrong and he'd just go ape on them. He'd tell them how to do something, but he'd never really show them how to do it and they never got any reps at it.
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hoosier
Sophomore Member
Posts: 176
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Post by hoosier on Oct 24, 2009 18:28:48 GMT -6
this is a great thread. i can identify with all the post. its easy to spot a coach who is a great teacher/motivator, and one who isnt. whats that quote....something like "he who knows more says less".
one thing that drives me crazy is to see a player who makes a big mistake (INT, fumble, etc) at a critical time. no one in the world feels as bad as he does about the mistake, knowing he let his team, coaches, friends down and perhaps the game is loss on his mistake. he then has to come to the sideline to get a screaming earful about how he sucks and needs to pull his head out of his ass. just terrible.
in such a moment, im the first one to him. i say "why did that happen?". he explains. i ask if he learned from it. i put my arm around him and say "its about getting better every day and learning from mistakes. dont let this get you down because there will be another day, you'll be a better player, and you WILL get another chance."
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Post by coachcb on Oct 24, 2009 20:39:55 GMT -6
I agree with hoosier on this one...Man, there's nothing that gets under my skin worse than when a kid makes a bad mistake and gets an earful on the sideline. The kid is already taken down a notch, nothing worse than knocking him down another peg.
To make matters worse, you probably need that kid to go back out and compete within a few plays.. You'd better do what you can to calm him down and build him back up; you don't need him going back out and screwing up again.
I see this happen all the time with RBs... The kid fumbles the ball on your side of the fifty, the other team scores. The kid gets screamed at on the sideline, you still need him to play, you send him back out and he fumbles again... AND, to make matters worse, no one has asked him what happened and no one has told him how to fix it.
We had a kid fumble the ball on our 20 yesterday, the other team scores. Our HC/OC pulls him aside and calmly asks him to pull the sleeves up on his Under Armour shirt; it was made out of slick material and it made it harder for the kid to carry the ball. No yelling, no screaming, the kid went out and played well the rest of the game...
It's funny how so many of the issues that we're discussing pop up on avdaily or weekly basis.
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Post by brophy on Oct 24, 2009 20:55:06 GMT -6
Why did you play the game?
It wasn't for the coaches, was it? It was to be a competitor and the respect you gained amongst peers.
I guess this particular issue I bring up because I think we take for granted the effect it has on the rest of the team. When we constantly undermine a starter and show no confidence in him (and continue to start him), especially when the kid gets yanked for no real fault of his own.....we set that kid up to be a scapegoat when things go bad (think the "Jonah" complex in the movie, "Master & Commander"). Just pointing out a delicate situation we ought to be mindful of to prevent undermining the work we do to actually build the team.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Oct 24, 2009 23:12:37 GMT -6
Great thread, a few of us who have coach for a couple of years have seen many examples of these things.
One main point that I make with staff is to never scream at a kid that he made a mistake. He already knows he's made a mistake, don't tell him what he did wrong-tell him what to do next.
You'd be surprised how hard that is to do when you are in the middle of a real fight, but we must control ourselves enough to be able to actually "coach."
We had to get rid of a coach because he was unable to function in a game with this in mind.
I repeatedly told him, "don't yell at him the things he did wrong, turn it around and tell him what to do."
He could never do that, I just think the was not smart enough to be able to do that-so he had to go.
There's a whole lot more, but this is an important one to me.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 25, 2009 5:56:45 GMT -6
Something that we struggle with is this:
Player A doesnt show up for film session on Saturday
Coach is going over film and talks about player A mistakes and performance matter of factly " johnson got reached here, his outside shoulder is blocked and that allows the tackle to block the mike"
Player A has a friend in the crowd that has a totally FUBAR "filter" and thrives off drama, tells player A that the coach is "calling him out" or "talking crap" about him or whatever.
Player A being really sensitive and not at film to hear what is really discussed wants to quit.
Player A continues to make the same mistakes as always because he missed film session and hes the kid who needed it most. he carries a sour attitude with him and resists coaching because he thinks the staff doesnt like him. Player A ends up in the doghouse.
when player A finally quits, he takes his FUBAR filter friend with him.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 25, 2009 6:50:22 GMT -6
Something that we struggle with is this: Player A doesnt show up for film session on Saturday Coach is going over film and talks about player A mistakes and performance matter of factly " johnson got reached here, his outside shoulder is blocked and that allows the tackle to block the mike" Player A has a friend in the crowd that has a totally FUBAR "filter" and thrives off drama, tells player A that the coach is "calling him out" or "talking crap" about him or whatever. Player A being really sensitive and not at film to hear what is really discussed wants to quit. Player A continues to make the same mistakes as always because he missed film session and hes the kid who needed it most. he carries a sour attitude with him and resists coaching because he thinks the staff doesnt like him. Player A ends up in the doghouse. when player A finally quits, he takes his FUBAR filter friend with him. I will admit, I have been guilty of this on the sideline... I'm calling a game and I have to pull someone out because they made a mistake. I'm he walks past me, upset, but I've got to call the next down. Another defensive guy walks up to me, asks me why I pulled him and I tell him before talking to the kid..Sometimes, it's the middle of the game, I'm a little hyped up and I don't keep my voice down. I don't yell, but it's just loud enough that some of the kids can hear it... Even after I talk to the kid about it, tell him how to fix it, and get him back into the game, the kids are chattering about it. It happened this last game and I felt bad... one of our DEs totally blew contain, I pulled him and our DL coach was p-ssed about it. The kid storms past me, the DL coach sees it and asks why I pulled him... I tell him, louder than I should've that the kid didn't contain and it cost us a first down... But, live and learn, next week, if the same thing happens and a defensive guy asks me about it, I'll let him know that we'll talk about it after the defensive series, which this year, is usually pretty short.  |
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Post by coachorr on Oct 25, 2009 8:17:48 GMT -6
Something that we struggle with is this: Player A doesnt show up for film session on Saturday Coach is going over film and talks about player A mistakes and performance matter of factly " johnson got reached here, his outside shoulder is blocked and that allows the tackle to block the mike" Player A has a friend in the crowd that has a totally FUBAR "filter" and thrives off drama, tells player A that the coach is "calling him out" or "talking crap" about him or whatever. Player A being really sensitive and not at film to hear what is really discussed wants to quit. Player A continues to make the same mistakes as always because he missed film session and hes the kid who needed it most. he carries a sour attitude with him and resists coaching because he thinks the staff doesnt like him. Player A ends up in the doghouse. when player A finally quits, he takes his FUBAR filter friend with him. I will admit, I have been guilty of this on the sideline... I'm calling a game and I have to pull someone out because they made a mistake. I'm he walks past me, upset, but I've got to call the next down. Another defensive guy walks up to me, asks me why I pulled him and I tell him before talking to the kid..Sometimes, it's the middle of the game, I'm a little hyped up and I don't keep my voice down. I don't yell, but it's just loud enough that some of the kids can hear it... Even after I talk to the kid about it, tell him how to fix it, and get him back into the game, the kids are chattering about it. It happened this last game and I felt bad... one of our DEs totally blew contain, I pulled him and our DL coach was p-ssed about it. The kid storms past me, the DL coach sees it and asks why I pulled him... I tell him, louder than I should've that the kid didn't contain and it cost us a first down... But, live and learn, next week, if the same thing happens and a defensive guy asks me about it, I'll let him know that we'll talk about it after the defensive series, which this year, is usually pretty short. Huh? How would you say it differently next time? Not that he cost you a first down, or that he didn't contain? |
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Post by phantom on Oct 25, 2009 8:22:39 GMT -6
I will admit, I have been guilty of this on the sideline... I'm calling a game and I have to pull someone out because they made a mistake. I'm he walks past me, upset, but I've got to call the next down. Another defensive guy walks up to me, asks me why I pulled him and I tell him before talking to the kid..Sometimes, it's the middle of the game, I'm a little hyped up and I don't keep my voice down. I don't yell, but it's just loud enough that some of the kids can hear it... Even after I talk to the kid about it, tell him how to fix it, and get him back into the game, the kids are chattering about it. It happened this last game and I felt bad... one of our DEs totally blew contain, I pulled him and our DL coach was p-ssed about it. The kid storms past me, the DL coach sees it and asks why I pulled him... I tell him, louder than I should've that the kid didn't contain and it cost us a first down... But, live and learn, next week, if the same thing happens and a defensive guy asks me about it, I'll let him know that we'll talk about it after the defensive series, which this year, is usually pretty short. Huh? How would you say it differently next time? Not that he cost you a first down, or that he didn't contain? Agreed. If a guy's that sensitive then this may not be the business for him. |
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