A11-In « Thread Started on Mar 31, 2008, 10:51pm »
I am new to this site, but I felt compelled to speak about the A-11. I saw the Piedmont staff present the offense at the Burlingame, CA clinic and I purchased the advanced reader copy of Coach Bryan and Coach Humphrie's manual.
This is the real deal. An offense like this will make waves from Pop Warner to the NFL. Especially, since it is now public.
As its popularity grows, it will definitely revolutionize the game in terms of a new spread-based concept.
Small, athletic teams will now have the opportunity relieve the pressure in the box and still have the ability to attack all areas of the field by running, optioning, or passing.
It is safer for the players, it is legally approved, and as coaches, we need to have this in our arsenal to adapt to our players' abilities.
Personally, I am tired of seeing my players grind themselves down by having to play offense, defense, and sometimes, all special teams.
We will be implementing during our 7-on-7's, camps, and practices throughout the summer. Once the season begins, I am confident that we will be competitive with most, if not all teams we face.
coach, your lack of education in this wonderful gameand pretty much blindness to what blb DID, which you didnt miss, is why this board while adding members, has very few posters. THE SAME POSTER everyday.
--- PM from internet tough guy/fake coach macgillmanrhs2004 who sent message and blocked replies before one could be made.
I don't think it will ever work at the College or Pro levels because of the speed factor. But at the HS level sure. It's not what I'd do but it is interesting.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 502 Location: WEST MICHIGAN
Re: A11-In « Reply #5 on Apr 1, 2008, 12:57am »
I'm all for out of the box thinking. BUT.... Don't count your chickens until there hatched or whatever they say. I know the A-11 wont make it to the NCAA or the NFL mainly because the rules wont allow it bottom line. I do think SOME teams will have success with it initially because of its obscure formations but once teams find the best way to align then we will see the truth. I dont know enough about this offense but as far as I know its only been ran by 1 school for 1 year..correct ?
"FUN football leads to OPTIMISTIC football that proceeds into POSITIVE football which gives birth to WINNING football." -Glen “Tiger” Ellison
kurtbryan Guest
Re: A11-In « Reply #6 on Apr 1, 2008, 1:08am »
I know the A-11 wont make it to the NCAA or the NFL mainly because the rules wont allow it bottom line. I do think SOME teams will have success with it initially because of its obscure formations but once teams find the best way to align then we will see the truth.
* Football evolves or dies, always has/always will.
In terms of NCAA and NFL levels. Since the A-11 made its debut, we have been working with NCAA coaching staffs to develop applications using True A-11 personnel and a few tweaked versions, and to date, one NFL coach too in the NFC.
There are several times per game - at least a Dozen in the NCAA when a True A-11 package can/will turn the game in your favor.
Let us all root for eachother's innovations to be successful to keep the game always evolving.
Joined: Jun 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,026 Location: The Great Valley
Re: A11-In « Reply #7 on Apr 1, 2008, 6:15am »
Coach Bryan, I read the article in AFM and have read many posts here. While I do not think the A11 is more me, I do recognize the trully innovative nature of it. It has certainly got my braining spinning and thinking about how to defend it. It actually makes me think of rugby w/ a legal forward pass.. Kudos for thinking outside the box and clearly working so hard to develop the concept.
I read the AFM article about it and I couldn't see it at the college level as more than just a trick play kind of deal. The reason, whose going to block those big huge fast DE that come screaming off the edge. No guy in an 80s number is going to slow him down at all. I could see it having some impact at the high school level but the NFL and colleges aren't going to buy into it.
* Football evolves or dies, always has/always will.
KB
I don't think football will die if it doesn't evolve. Football isn't going anywhere. Basketball hasn't evolved in 30 years (3 point shot - which was a rule change).
That being said, A-11 looks cool. Not for me (unless it proves to be unstoppable).
I also think that it could bring about some rule changes that would eliminate it. But while the rules are in favor of it, go for it.
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 1,970 Location: Beloit, Kansas
Re: A11-In « Reply #10 on Apr 1, 2008, 7:40am »
For what it is worth, I would personally love to schedule an A-11 team. While our defense would have to make some adjustments with personnel and alignment, I think we would have enough skilled defenders to be okay. However, I think we would have an advantage when we have the ball. We would sell our guys on the fact that this team runs the A-11 because they want to keep their players safe and revolutionize the game. Our guys would eat that stuff up and be hunting big hit opportunities on both sides of the ball all night long. We would love to line up against guys who admit that they are looking for ways to limit the contact in the game of football. Our theme for the week would be: THEY CAN RUN, BUT THEY CAN'T HIDE!
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 550 Location: Rhode Island
Re: A11-In « Reply #11 on Apr 1, 2008, 7:41am »
Quote:
This is the real deal. An offense like this will make waves from Pop Warner to the NFL. Especially, since it is now public.
I don't know how you can say it's the real deal yet when it's only been around for 1 year. If an offense has consistant success over a period of 5-10 years, then yes that can be considered the real deal.
You also mentioned that it's a way for small quick teams to combat size. I've already seen smaller, quick teams blow bigger, stronger teams out of the water using conventional offenses.
I know the A-11 wont make it to the NCAA or the NFL mainly because the rules wont allow it bottom line. I do think SOME teams will have success with it initially because of its obscure formations but once teams find the best way to align then we will see the truth.
* Football evolves or dies, always has/always will.
Let us all root for eachother's innovations to be successful to keep the game always evolving.
KB
Why? This is a serious question. What I see you rooting for here is for all the "fat kids" to stay at home and play XBOX while all of the "skilled players" play...This opportunity already exists in basketball and flag football..
coach, your lack of education in this wonderful gameand pretty much blindness to what blb DID, which you didnt miss, is why this board while adding members, has very few posters. THE SAME POSTER everyday.
--- PM from internet tough guy/fake coach macgillmanrhs2004 who sent message and blocked replies before one could be made.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 550 Location: Rhode Island
Re: A11-In « Reply #13 on Apr 1, 2008, 7:46am »
Quote:
[quote author=kurtbryan board=general thread=1207025494 post=1207033683] Why? This is a serious question. What I see you rooting for here is for all the "fat kids" to stay at home and play XBOX while all of the "skilled players" play...This opportunity already exists in basketball and flag football..
Not only that. If the bigger, linemen type players begin to lose interest and stay home then the defense of an A-11 team will see it's downfall. You can't play defense without linemen. You'll be giving up 30 to 40 points agame against quality teams.
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 1,970 Location: Beloit, Kansas
Re: A11-In « Reply #14 on Apr 1, 2008, 7:47am »
Quote:
Quote:
I know the A-11 wont make it to the NCAA or the NFL mainly because the rules wont allow it bottom line. I do think SOME teams will have success with it initially because of its obscure formations but once teams find the best way to align then we will see the truth.
* Football evolves or dies, always has/always will.
Let us all root for eachother's innovations to be successful to keep the game always evolving.
KB
Why? This is a serious question. What I see you rooting for here is for all the "fat kids" to stay at home and play XBOX while all of the "skilled players" play...This opportunity already exists in basketball and flag football..
While I agree with Coachd, I am telling you guys, if your program is built on the weightroom and physical play, schedule all the A-11 teams you can find! I would love to see all those small quick guys who like to avoid contact have to play defense.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 550 Location: Rhode Island
Re: A11-In « Reply #15 on Apr 1, 2008, 7:58am »
I posed this question in an A-11 thread a few months ago but it never got answerd by Coach Bryan. If I have any of this info wrong please let me know because I coule be.
Would you agree that the new conference you're in is weaker that your previous one? Because that makes a huge difference on a teams success. A quick example....Back a few years ago my high school was in an extremely tough division and went 4-6 with a pretty talented group of players. The following year we had the same talent, if not worse but the division was realigned and we ended up going something like 10-1 or 9-2 and won the state championship. We had the same talent and the same offense but because the talent level of the opponents was down, we looked better than what we were.
From the info I have read you had a tough time in the playoffs. Would you say the teams you beat were not that much more skilled than you guys were? This offense is suppose to combat supirior talent but when facing these teams there doesnt seem to be an improvement.
This is exactly why CoachHuey is such a great web site, and thanks for the Kudos guys...
Love hearing new thoughts, (not the tired old ones), exploring fresh concepts, and/or provocative retort. Here goes and then I gotta move on to so many other threads on here to choose from:
1. We DO play some of our traditional OL in the White Box in the A-11 and also in our Highlander Offense (traditional). For the OL who do not make it into the A-11 lineup, we switched them over to Defense and they LOVED it! PLUS, an unintended Benefit of using the A-11, is by doing what I just said, it gave us More Depth and Strength on our DL.
2. Safety: I would never have a problem with putting the Safety of our kids first - always have and will - but please do not take things out of context. Football has always been a tough game and shall remain so. Our players are tough - but overall not as big/strong physically as the teams we play.
3. Strength of League: Like the thousands of leagues across the USA - ours varies annually. In 2006 we had a more experienced and talented team, including East Bay Defensive player of the year - who is on a full-ride to Oregon as a DL and total stud. Luckily he transferred to Piedmont from L.A. for his Senior year. So that was Piedmont's 3rd football scholaship player in 25 years. Plus we had one of the best DB/WR/Ret and two-time all-league at QB, and we finished 5 - 5 overall, and snuck into the playoffs.
4. Jumping forward to the 2007 season, we had a lot of guys that needed to prove they could lead/win, and a first-time Varsity QB. Well, we finished 7 - 3 and made the playoffs. We battled Las Lomas who at 13 - 0 won the NCS East Bay title, and only lost to Novato in the NorCal championship game. BUT, Las Lomas was nearly twice our enrollment and a great program/coaching/talent, and in our playoff game vs. them, it was 35 - 21 Las Lomas, with Seven minutes to go in the game, before the wheels came off and they rolled us.
This year our league will be even more brutal with the addition of Encinal - excellent athletes and great coaching.
That is gonna be it for now and to answer the last query, YES, some teams are going to use the A-11 as their Base offense like we do, and many more will use it as a "Change Up."
Ofcourse, some teams will never use it - which is OK too.
It's not a man-purse. It's a satchel. Indiana Jones wears one.
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,197 Location: In front of a computer, duh!
Re: A11-In « Reply #17 on Apr 1, 2008, 9:21am »
I will say this, the A-11 is a very innovative and interesting football offense. I think it is a huge credit to coach Bryan and his staff for having the guts and the perseverance to install and advocate for such a system. It is truly a well thought-out and well intended system. My hat is genuinely off to those guys for what they are doing.
However, I think there are some interesting arguments here that illustrate why the "A-11" or the "5-wide" styles of football will never be for me. It's not fear, it's not "DUGH...I DUNNO WHAT EYEM DOIN IN DA PASSIN GAME," and it's not laziness. It's purely my philosophy and beliefs in what football is all about.
Now, hear me out on this and try not to get too wound up...
Football is a special sport. I don't think anyone here will argue about that. But, one of the many reasons it's a special sport because of the diversity of the "types" of players that can be involved. Football has always (to me) been a game that is characterized by physical play, the strategies and uniqueness of linemen play, and mental / physical / emotional toughness.
It seems like every time we talk about "innovations" in the game, it's all about how to compete with weaker kids and / or about getting "athletes" on the field. People come out and say stuff like:
1. We can't compete with the bigger schools 2. We can't get the basketball kids to come out and play 3. Our kids are outweighed across the board in every game 4. Our offense is more "fun" for the athletes 5. It is safer and less physically demanding on the kids etc. etc.
In my mind, fellas (oh crap, here comes the $hitstorm) these are excuses. It's so easy to say "we don't have the players," as an excuse for lack of success. It's also easy to say "we don't have the players" because then, when your innovations work, you look like a coaching genius and are well set-up to take all the credit.
My question is why are coaches not trying to be "innovative" and get your kids tougher and more physically prepared to play the game? Obviously it IS possible because your oppoenents are capable of doing it, or otherwise you wouldn't be so dang outmatched in every game.
I never thought I would see the day that we need to make football more accessible to weaker and smaller kids. There are already sports for weaker and smaller kids. Go to a soccer game and you'll see what I mean. Our sport is for bigger and stronger and tougher kids. In fact, I used to tell our kids about how I felt about the bumper stickers that you see around town that say "Soccer: The Sport For All." I'd tell the kids that it is true that soccer IS the sport for everyone and that's very nice, but WE have pride because WE know that only a special type of athlete can play football.
We talk about how "fun" the sport is when you're throwing the ball and getting into wide, spread-out formations. I wonder who we are talking about when we say this? Certainly fun for the WR's and QB's...no doubt! But, I have yet to talk to any offensive lineman that says he wants to spend all week pass blocking and zone blocking for 2-3 run plays. Offensive linemen think that double teams, pulling, trapping, and power blocking are fun! So, why are we shifting philisophically toward sacrificing the "fun" of these guys (who are the most unique and under-appreciated athletes in all of sports) for the "fun" of the guys who already get to score all the TD's and touch the ball?
"Well coach, we don't get any linemen and TE types out in our program."
Well, I would say that you DEFINITELEY won't get any of those types of guys out now, if your philosophy has shifted toward making these guys a glorified picket fence.
Again, what are you doing to get these types of guys out...to develop them...to make the game fun for them? Someone in the "5-wide" thread argued that coaches won't run that offense because they are "afraid of change" and they "don't know how to coach the passing game." I think the same can be argued for those who simply throw their hands up and say "our program has weak kids!" Well, what are you doing to be creative and innovative to get those kinds of guys out? What are you doing to turn that 205 lb offensive linemen into a 230 lb offensive linemen in the weightroom? What are you doint to motivate FOOTBALL PLAYERS to get out there and play football? THAT'S innovation too, and it is just as possible and it is just as much hard work as any scheme or system.
We went from having 2 seasons in-a-row where we didn't have a single OL that averaged over 200 lbs. One year, our biggest guy was 220, and everyone else was in the 180-lb range. As a team, we didn't fare so well, especially being the lowest-populated school in our league. We stuck to our guns, we emphasized weight room and off-season participation, we rewarded tough, physical play, and we made our "big guys" feel special...and 3 years later, we were one of the biggest teams in our division, with a line averaging over 230 lbs (including several gifted TE's that were basketball-type guys and all between 210 and 230 lbs). We weren't slugs...we were physical, big, and nasty...like football players are supposed to be. Granted, it is a long-range strategy, and it takes time to turn things around, but it is where we want to be.
This is why I always argue for balance in an offensive and defensive philosophy. Everything else becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. But, to me, it's more important to keep football accessible for these special and unique athletes and to maintain the unique football mentality rather than saying "we don't have that, so we're going to move on," for the sake of short-term competitiveness.
Football is a special game because of the types of players the game demands. It requires toughness, discipline, teamwork, and a selfless attitude. I know that's not "fun" for a lot of selfish and weak kids out there. Well, that's too bad. I don't want selfish and weak kids on my teams. I want tough kids who care about winning and will do what it takes to be competitive in the off-season. We try to breed that...burn it into the fabric of what the program is all about... Are we successful every single year? NOPE! But, when we aren't "successful" we are still "competitive" and we have kids having fun.
Anyway, I've rambled quite a bit. I'm not a former Offensive Lineman (I was actually a RB and a DB), but I feel like those kinds of guys (FB's, OL, TE's) are what make our game unique and special. We should always try to have "innovative" ways to get these kids out and develop them into football players, and have a system designed to allow them to contribute and flourish just like anyone else. I don't see basketball trying to change itself to allow for 5'6 kids to play because they "need more athletes", and I don't see soccer coaches trying to develop systems to allow big slow kids to play because "we need more size." Those games aren't designed for kids like that. Just like football isn't designed for kids that aren't tough and strong.
If that's the future of football ("athletes," basketball on grass, QB-dominated, etc.), then so be it, but then it becomes just another game, and not the unique and special game that it has always been.
Not to sound harsh, but please don't send me a private message if your goal is to get me to send you a playbook, video, cutup, or other. I'm just not into it, fellas.
More effort than I have put into it, but that is what I have been saying since the A-11 threads first started (along with questioning the sportsmanship/ethics of the last second eligible/ineligible possibilities)
Quote:
If that's the future of football ("athletes," basketball on grass, QB-dominated, etc.), then so be it, but then it becomes just another game, and not the unique and special game that it has always been.
That sport already exists. They wear flags. Absolutely no shame in preferring that over tackle football, but there is a difference.
coach, your lack of education in this wonderful gameand pretty much blindness to what blb DID, which you didnt miss, is why this board while adding members, has very few posters. THE SAME POSTER everyday.
--- PM from internet tough guy/fake coach macgillmanrhs2004 who sent message and blocked replies before one could be made.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 550 Location: Rhode Island
Re: A11-In « Reply #20 on Apr 1, 2008, 10:16am »
Lochness pretty much said it all and i'd like to also say that if a team is year in and year out physically outmatched then maybe we as coaches need to be inovative in our off season workout plan rather than our offensive scheme. Because no matter what athletism a player has, he can always be work to be just as strong and game smart as the next guy. You often see in football the average player who works his butt off to compete with the players with the "natural" ability that are lazy.
I also don't buy the "my offense is great because I can compete against the superior teams with my tiny, slow, unathletic players". In all honestly if your players are that bad you won't compete no matter what offense you run. We all know that our offenses are more effective with better players, that's obvious.
Joined: Oct 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 676 Location: PNW
Re: A11-In « Reply #21 on Apr 1, 2008, 11:15am »
Congrats to Coach Bryan,
You are to be commended for your innovation and creativity! You have been an outstanding contributor to this board and to the coaching community for your willingness to openly share your work. Thanks Coach.
It's not a man-purse. It's a satchel. Indiana Jones wears one.
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,197 Location: In front of a computer, duh!
Re: A11-In « Reply #25 on Apr 1, 2008, 11:48am »
Coaches,
Also I want to make sure that it is clear that I am not attacking or condemning anyone else's philosophy or personal beliefs. We all care passionately about the kids and about our programs. My post was just intended as an explanation as to why I personally do not gravitate toward certain brands of offense or defense. I want to make sure that people understand that it isn't because I fear change or because I'm incapable or unwilling to learn something new.
Everyone has to do their own thing...that's what makes football (especially HS and youth football) so awesome.
Not to sound harsh, but please don't send me a private message if your goal is to get me to send you a playbook, video, cutup, or other. I'm just not into it, fellas.
Joined: Nov 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 502 Location: WEST MICHIGAN
Re: A11-In « Reply #26 on Apr 1, 2008, 3:28pm »
Quote:
I know the A-11 wont make it to the NCAA or the NFL mainly because the rules wont allow it bottom line. I do think SOME teams will have success with it initially because of its obscure formations but once teams find the best way to align then we will see the truth.
* Football evolves or dies, always has/always will.
In terms of NCAA and NFL levels. Since the A-11 made its debut, we have been working with NCAA coaching staffs to develop applications using True A-11 personnel and a few tweaked versions, and to date, one NFL coach too in the NFC.
There are several times per game - at least a Dozen in the NCAA when a True A-11 package can/will turn the game in your favor.
Let us all root for eachother's innovations to be successful to keep the game always evolving.
KB
I was in no way saying its a bad system I just dont think it will be ran as a system for college teams maybe as a change of pace or "trick" formation. I love the fact that its a differnt offense I am all for that, im a 5 wides guy so i like that kid of stuff. I just want to see it over time.
If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.
kurtbryan Guest
Re: A11-In « Reply #29 on Apr 2, 2008, 9:09am »
Implementing the A-11 for 7 on 7 is simple and is the Best time to get all 6 of your primary WR's massive work, while the OL/TE work on Pass Pro/Blitz, etc.
But it does require a tiny bit of modification from a coaches perspective:
1. You need to decide per series or periods of practice during Skelly How many players the Defense will have in the White Box (between the Hashes). Is the Def. going to be in 4-1 or 3-2 Look (5 in the Box), or something else, etc.
2. With all of the delayed Shifting in this offense and last second adjusting, it gives your WR's lots of Reps to ensure everybody is aligning correctly: on/off, trading sides to another part of the field, motioning, etc.
3. From a Defensive POV, obviously it forces them to learn who is or is not eligible on that certain play and/or in a particular formation
4. Our 7 on 7 periods and Half-field sessions are very productive
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