Cut blocks illegal in Pop Warner??

[mules64]

This cannot be true can it? How are you DWers doing it then? The head of our officials for the league said that the offense or defense is not allowed to initiate contact below the waist, and implied it has always been that way. I looked in the 2008 official rule and it says "chop blocks" are illegal. Is a chop block the same as a cut or shoeshine?

[coachdoug]

Well, your league may have its own rules about cut blocks, but cut blocks are allowed in the FBZ under Federation (NFHS) rules, which is what most youth leagues use. A chop block is defined as a high-low (or I think it's been expanded to include a low-low) double team block, and that is not allowed anywhere at any level.

You can order the Federation rule book from their website, which I believe is www.nfhs.org.

BTW, if you read through the Rules of the Game section above, you will find several discussions about cut blocking and exactly what is legal and illegal under Federation and NCAA rules.

Good luck to you, coach.

[davecisar]

Chop often refers to a high/low with one player blocking high, the other low.
Below the waist blocks in the FBZ have always been allowed.

[coachtabales]

In our league the "shoeshine" type of block is allowed by some, not allowed by others. I've coached the DW and if your backside end can get in position to shoeshine, he can get there to interfere up high as well. He doesn't need to blow the guy over, just buy the back some time. Worst case, you'll have to reduce your splits to nothing, and/or start calling your O's.

[youthfootballguru]

New rule this year in High School seems stupid to me, but hey what do I know. No cut blocking when your Qb is not under center.

[justryn2]

Just a couple of items on this. A chop block is when two players are blocking against 1 AND they do not make simultaneous contact AND the second player makes initial contact below the waist. I have not seen the updated rule book for this year yet but, generally officials have allowed blocking below the waist in the FBZ on shotgun snaps if it occurs IMMEDIATELY after the snap; basically while the ball is in flight. Once the ball is in the QBs hands, the FBZ "disintegrates."

[disney]

From my understanding cut blocking is permitted inside the tackle box...or anywhere on the field if the initial contact is above the waist

[coachtabales]

According to the NCAA rule book:

"Chop Block (Rule 2-3-3). The definition of the chop block has been simplified to assist in the understanding of this rule and to encourage more consistent officiating. A chop block is now defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (other than the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts. The “low” component is at the opponent’s thigh or below. A dangerous action that can lead to serious injury, the chop block is a personal foul that carries a 15-yard penalty."

According to the Pop Warner Officeal Rules for 2008 season (Page 38):

"Both the National Federation and NCAA rulebooks contain extremely strong language on blocking and tackling. It is the responsibility of every Pop Warner coach to be fully informed of, and abide by, all such rules of the governing body (National Federation or NCAA) under whose jurisdiction his state falls, and to review same every year. In addition to other specific prohibitions in the National Fedeartion and NCAA rulebooks, no butt blocking, chop blocking, face tackling or sprearing techniques shall be permitted. If such techniques or any others forbidden by the National Fedeartion and NCAA rulebooks are taught by Pop Warner coaches, said coaches shall be dismissed from the program, upon being found guilty following a hearing."

So to answer your question, yes, cut blocks are illegal in Pop Warner by rule.

[coachdoug]

Aug 2, 2008 16:36:48 GMT -6 coachtabales said:

According to the NCAA rule book:

"Chop Block (Rule 2-3-3). The definition of the chop block has been simplified to assist in the understanding of this rule and to encourage more consistent officiating. A chop block is now defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (other than the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts. The “low” component is at the opponent’s thigh or below. A dangerous action that can lead to serious injury, the chop block is a personal foul that carries a 15-yard penalty."

According to the Pop Warner Officeal Rules for 2008 season (Page 38):

"Both the National Federation and NCAA rulebooks contain extremely strong language on blocking and tackling. It is the responsibility of every Pop Warner coach to be fully informed of, and abide by, all such rules of the governing body (National Federation or NCAA) under whose jurisdiction his state falls, and to review same every year. In addition to other specific prohibitions in the National Fedeartion and NCAA rulebooks, no butt blocking, chop blocking, face tackling or sprearing techniques shall be permitted. If such techniques or any others forbidden by the National Fedeartion and NCAA rulebooks are taught by Pop Warner coaches, said coaches shall be dismissed from the program, upon being found guilty following a hearing."

So to answer your question, yes, cut blocks are illegal in Pop Warner by rule.

That's a common misconception, coach. Many coaches, and even some officials, don't understand the difference between an illegal chop block and a cut block. As the definition you posted states, a chop block is a double team block with one or both of the blockers going low (thigh or lower) on the defender.

A cut block, which is legal in the FBZ in Pop Warner and under Federation rules (subject to some limitations, such as both blocker and defender must be on the LOS at the snap and both must be in the FBZ and contact must be initiated in the FBZ), is simply a block below the waist. As long as the cut block meets the FBZ criteria, and is not a double team block, it is perfectly legal.

[coryell2009]

Why is it necessary for children to cut block each other? I'm not a fan of the technique...as I've seen way too many injuries with this style of block. Injuries happen in football, but there is no reason to endanger the children even moreso than necessary. Just wondering how do you feel about tackles to players knees? It's funny. I teach players to win. I won't teach players techniques that involve any tactics that raise the possibility of injuries. God forbid my son plays with a coach that teaches him this technique would be the last day he plays. Does it not reach anyone that the kids safety come first?

[coachtabales]

Call it what you want, the rule is very clear. If the refs don't understand the rule then someone should point it out to them. I coach by black letter law, so the misconception does not fall on me. Not to mention, like coryell2009, I don't teach any variation of any block that may cause injury. It may cause me a game, but it will never cause me a suspension or an injured player.

[davecisar]

Ive coached youth football for 15 years and Ive never seen a "cut" block result in an injury.
For many youth linemen when outweighed by 100 lbs (unlimited leagues) it is an equalizer for small players and small teams (like ours) .
With zero splits we just teach linemen to cut the player off by impeding his path, with a crab type block, rarely is much contact made.
With so much talk of "prepare them for the next level" not sure forbidding it really fits with that goal.

[jhanawa]

There isn't anything unsafe or unethical about teaching proper cut blocking at any level. I think there is a misunderstanding about what it is, it is very different that a "hi/low" chop block, which is illegal at any level.

[coryell2009]

Well, here in Dallas, I've seen numerous cut blocks (without the Hi/Lo technique) that have caused major injuries. I'm against it and I always will be, especially from the ages of 8-17. There is a reason they are starting to outlaw these techiniques at this level. Even Joe Theismann says that this practice should be curtailed. I happen to agree with him and some of the others:

Mario Williams, Texans defensive end: "It's more of a man-up to me. Personally, I don't like cut blocking. I'd rather they just hit people in the mouth. It's just a different type of thing people are going to have to deal with."

Albert Haynesworth, Titans defensive tackle: "They always talk about us being dirty, maybe they need to look at that, trying to hurt people and stuff. If they aren't man enough to stay up, shoot, they shouldn't be in the league then. The coach, either."

I've seen some players at the HS level completely lose there cool and try to kill a player during a game because of a cut block. Demarcus Granger comes to mind. I'm trying to remember the team, but a player cut blocked him, which was legal and he thought he hurt his knee. Goes out a couple of plays. Comes back in and AFTER the play almost takes that kids head off. I know I was one of the people trying to stop him. He told me after the game, the same comments these DL in the NFL are saying. If you can't beat them straight up, or with a legal double team then don't ruin someone's future. The guy who cut blocked him was getting trampled all game. Demarcus was beating double team after double team and then came the cutting. Needless to say after we got a pretty good lead we took him out. But we did lose 2 players to ACL tears that game. It made me furious. We spent all of the following preseason spending most of the time telling kids how not to get cut blocked....we rather lose the game than have kids injured. We never taught our O-Line to cut block. So maybe it was partially our fault for thinking other teams wouldn't do this act. I've seen Dallas Carter play Dallas Kimball at least 12 times not including when I played there and I can count the number of times I've seen a cut block. Mind you this is a huge rivalry and there has even been violence off the field but on the field they respect each other enough not to cut block.



proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=theismann_joe&id=1912145

[justryn2]

I believe the NFL rules on blocking below the waist (cut blocking) allow for this anywhere on the field, not just in the free blocking zone. However, I have never seen, and honestly cannot see how, blocking below the waist in and under the rules of the FBZ can cause an injury. If you say it has happened, and if we are really talking about the same thing, then you should try to get the rules changed. As long as the current rules exist, I will teach my offensive linemen how to legally and SAFELY neutralize the charge of the defensive linemen in the FBZ using blocks below waist, among other safe and legal techniques.

[coachtabales]

Any kind of hit below the waist is dangerous, and Pop Warner rules are not based on the NFL. Can't tell you how many times I've had to say that in the last 15 years.

[eickst]

5 Minutes of drill a week and your d-line knows how to react to a cut block. Just sayin...

[davecisar]

The kids are going to see it in HS and its simple to both execute and counter move.
I wouldnt ever allow an undisciplined player to react negatively to a totally legal tactic, he is the one going to incur the penalty and make himself look bad.
Sure players that are physically able to manhandle everyone hate this legal block. It allows non monsters the ability to compete.
In 15 yeaars of coaching youth football, Ive only seen 1 ACL injury and it came from a kid getting tackled, not blocked, 2 in one game sounds pretty horrific in your experience.
I know several HS coaches from Texas right here onthis board that would have no chance of competing if the cut blck was not allowed.
BTW I see Navy using cut blocks all over the field at the college level and most would describe them as a team of integrity.

[coachdoug]

Aug 2, 2008 19:39:08 GMT -6 coachtabales said:

Call it what you want, the rule is very clear. If the refs don't understand the rule then someone should point it out to them. I coach by black letter law, so the misconception does not fall on me. Not to mention, like coryell2009, I don't teach any variation of any block that may cause injury. It may cause me a game, but it will never cause me a suspension or an injured player.

You're right, the rule is very clear, which is why I thought you were confused, because you also said, "cut blocks are illegal in Pop Warner by rule," which is clearly an inaccurate statement. The basis for that statement seemed to be several quotes from the rules about chop blocks, which is why I tried to explain the difference.

Like Dave, I have coached for 15 years and have never seen an injury from a cut block. At the youth level it's just not a dangerous block, if executed properly. Drive blocking, in comparison, is much more dangerous because the defender's legs are carrying all of the defender's weight plus the pressure of the opponent's push - so if anyone rolls into the defender's legs, he is extremely vulnerable to injury. In my experience, this is exactly how the vast majority of leg injuries in the interior happen. Yet, we don't hear anyway crying that drive blocking should be abolished. We teach our d-line to stay low and protect their legs (not so much to avoid injury, but because we don't want them getting taken to the ground) - if they do that it is almost impossible to get injured by a legal cut block.

I actually rarely teach cut blocking - not because it's dangerous but because it generally isn't terribly effective - if the defender as had any coaching at all, he'll just push down a lineman that dives at this legs and go over him. What I do teach that I've found to be much more effective, and accomplish the same thing of allowing a smaller blocker to control a much bigger defender or to slow down an overly agressive charge, is to have my blocker make initial contact at the midsection and then roll down into the defender's thighs. Very effective and very safe.

Coryell2009 said a couple of things that should be addressed. He quoted a couple of NFL players about how they dislike cut blocking. As others have pointed out, what happens in the NFL has liitle or no bearing at the youth level. At the NFL level, cut blocking is typically employed to cut off backside pursuit. As such, it often has a lineman blindsiding the defender and hitting him from the SIDE, which is much more dangerous than any block from the front. At the youth level, line play is much more straightforward so dangerous side blocks don't happen much. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a blindside cut block from the side at the youth level. I would agree with y'all that a block like that is dangerous and has no place on the field, but I don't see anyone doing it. Also, Coryell2009 is in Texas, which plays HS ball under NCAA rules (please correct me if I'm mistaken), which allows for cut blocking anywhere on the field against anyone (expecpt on kickoffs, I think). A running back cutting a linebacker, or cutting anyone in the open field is inherently more dangerous than cutting in the FBZ, because both players can have a full head of steam, and the liklihood that the defender might not see the blocker coming and might have his feet planted, is substantially higher. So, if he has seen a lot of injuries from cut blocking, I'd be curious to know how many, if any, happened in the FBZ between linemen.

[phantom]

A legal, properly executed cut block in the FBZ is not dangerous. I'm in my 30th year of coaching HS football, have coached cut blocking for all of that time and have never seen a serious injury resulting from a cut block in the FBZ.

I'm talking about Federation rules where cut blocking must be instantaneous to the snap, in the FBZ only, by a blocker who is in the FBZ. Others can debate NCAA rules that allow cutting all over the field. That's not what we're talking about. We're discussing lineman on lineman right now. I've never seen a serious injury on that type of block and doubt that I ever will because there's nothing dangerous about it.

I'm not talking about NFL cut blocking. As others have mentioned, the NFL rules allow linemen to cur from behind after the ball has come out of the box. That's where serious injuries come from in professional football. Theoretically, it is possible to cut from behind in the FBZ under Federation rules. You can block in the back in the FBZ. You can cut in the FBZ. Practically, though, with the "instantaneous" rule a cut block from behind could only happen if the defense did something foolish like line up a player on the LOS with his back turned to a potential blocker.

As others have mentioned there is a major difference between a chop block and a cut block. Unlike a cut block a chop block is a two-on-1, high-low block. It is very dangerous and is illegal at every level of the game and it should be. Coachbales said that he coaches by the black letter of the law. Evidently not. As quoted, the Pop Warner rule book bans chop blocking. It does not mention cut blocking.

I have coached cut blocking for a long time. I will continue to do so because it's an effective, safe technique.

[coachtabales]

I'm sorry. I made a mistake when I typed it out. I forgot that if you make a mistake in your typing that it gives everyone here free reign to criticize and ridicule, my apologies.

Regardless, I refuse to coach kids in Pop Warner on how to hit anyone below the waist as a means to block in the FBZ. It's hard enough to get them to take in fundamentals consistently. It's different in high school (even though it had nothing to do with the question). At least you have more time to coach the technique properly. But doing it properly is the key word here. Reckless hits below the waist is dangerous, I don't care how old you are. But that's me, I'm obviously wrong.

[coachdbs]

For those of you who coach it correctly, I believe teaching a cut or crab block can be a great tool...especially for the undersized lineman. It is also a good way to prepare the older kids for high school football. However, I watched my son get cut block by another 7-year old team last year and I had a complete meltdown. They were crabbing and hitting my son on the side of the knee. In my limited time observing youth football coaches, I have seen more bad than good coaches and I think allowing cut blocks gives those bad coaches free reign to do some pretty stupid things. If your OL are doing all the little things right like staying low, keeping a good base , getting off the ball, etc....then teach them how to crab or cut correctly. If they are not doing all of the little things right, then I thinking you are doing them a disservice by teaching them to cut. Heck...we get players every year who have played youth football for years and their fundamentals are horrible. I know that most of you on this board don't fall into the bad coach category but you know you have all seen them.

On another note....30 years and you have never seen an injury at the HS level from cut blocks? I have only been at the HS level for 6 years and I have already seen a couple. Not calling you a liar just hard to imagine.

[buffscoach]

I realize that this is an old post but I felt that I have to post my thoughts on the matter of cut blocks after reading the comments of others. I believe that cut blocks are very useful when you have an undersized lineman going up against a stud DL. I haven't taught my peewees how to cut block, however, when I was at the midget level I showed them how I wanted them to cut block if they felt that they had no other way of blocking their man. I told them that they were aiming their helmet between the legs of the opponent and their shoulder pads had to be below the knees on the shins of the other player. That way I knew that any cut blocking that they would be doing would be from the front (man on) and below the knees so that they weren't causing any hyper/hypo extension type injuries. The whole time that I played high school ball I only used cut blocking in one game. The DL that I was tasked with blocking had committed to PSU and outweighed me by at least 60 lbs (I was a 190lb guard). Cut blocking does have a place in football and coaches have the responsibility to teach their players how to defeat/defend against an opponent that is cut blocking them. I tell my kids to push them to the ground and step on their back as they make their way into the backfield...

[justadad]

Hello, I am wondering how the rules regarding cut blocking in Pop Warner ball have changed, if at all, since this thread was last active. 

[33coach]

Jul 29, 2008 21:29:00 GMT -6 coachdoug said:

Well, your league may have its own rules about cut blocks, but cut blocks are allowed in the FBZ under Federation (NFHS) rules, which is what most youth leagues use. A chop block is defined as a high-low (or I think it's been expanded to include a low-low) double team block, and that is not allowed anywhere at any level.

You can order the Federation rule book from their website, which I believe is www.nfhs.org.

BTW, if you read through the Rules of the Game section above, you will find several discussions about cut blocking and exactly what is legal and illegal under Federation and NCAA rules.

Good luck to you, coach.

we are NFHS, and not pop warner, we are our own league with our own bylaws. cutting is still allowed in the FBZ as long as the ball is in the FBZ as well (something youth coaches forget) gun teams CANNOT cut. 

[casec11]

Aug 3, 2008 9:03:04 GMT -6 coachtabales said:

Any kind of hit below the waist is dangerous, and Pop Warner rules are not based on the NFL. Can't tell you how many times I've had to say that in the last 15 years.

so why are tackles allowed to happen below the waist?

Just realized this is an old thread...


Anyone know why this script is showing up below my post?  Don't click it I did not put it there.

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[jrk5150]

Sept 6, 2014 22:01:16 GMT -6 justadad said:

Hello, I am wondering how the rules regarding cut blocking in Pop Warner ball have changed, if at all, since this thread was last active. 

Pop Warner typically follows the local state HS rules, with some modifications.  Individual conferences can then add their own rules on top of any national or HS rules.

Which means you can only cut in the FBZ at most in all states except MA and TX, where the HS's follow NCAA rules which allow cut blocking all over the field.

I don't know if Pop Warner has any national rules that address cut blocking - our conference explicitly states that we follow NCAA rules in MA regarding blocking and tackling, and doesn't mention any limitations by national.  So I'm guessing there aren't any.  But Pop Warner guards its rule book to prevent "unauthorized use by unaffiliated orgs", so I don't believe I've ever even seen a national rule book.  LMAO - Pop Warner is such a backwards thinking org.  Ooh - they might STEAL our rules, so let's make it hard for dues paying members to see the rules too!!!!

[bobgoodman]

Nov 10, 2014 8:26:02 GMT -6 jrk5150 said:

Sept 6, 2014 22:01:16 GMT -6 justadad said:

Hello, I am wondering how the rules regarding cut blocking in Pop Warner ball have changed, if at all, since this thread was last active. 

Pop Warner typically follows the local state HS rules, with some modifications.  Individual conferences can then add their own rules on top of any national or HS rules.

Which means you can only cut in the FBZ at most in all states except MA and TX, where the HS's follow NCAA rules which allow cut blocking all over the field.

I don't know if Pop Warner has any national rules that address cut blocking - our conference explicitly states that we follow NCAA rules in MA regarding blocking and tackling, and doesn't mention any limitations by national.  So I'm guessing there aren't any.  But Pop Warner guards its rule book to prevent "unauthorized use by unaffiliated orgs", so I don't believe I've ever even seen a national rule book.  LMAO - Pop Warner is such a backwards thinking org.  Ooh - they might STEAL our rules, so let's make it hard for dues paying members to see the rules too!!!!

I got a copy of their rules 35 yrs. ago, so it wasn't always like that.  It was written in the form, previous year's Fed rules with listed exceptions....  It was included as a section of a handbook on organiz'n & regs.  ISTR that at the time they had restrictions on blocking below the waist on scrimmage plays before Fed did.  They also made for a slower game, allowing 35 secs. to put the ball in play (from the ready) and 5 team time-outs/half.  Don't know if I can dig that booklet out quickly now.  Using Fed rules as a base meant that in Texas they couldn't just rely on the experience of interscholastic field officials; Mass.'s HSAA at that time had just signed on to Fed for football, but switched back to NCAA rules after the turn of the century.

Silly of Pop Warner to treat their rules as a trade secret, as if they were so valuable!

[jrk5150]

I quoted their web site, the rule book is pw protected on there.  They say the provide each conference with plenty of hard copies to pass around.

LOL.  How ridiculous.