Riddle me this... Platoon or Best 11?

[pantherpride91]

juice10 said:

I was just curious, for those of you who platoon, Do you play sophomores? How many 10-12 graders do you have out for football? What is a good number to start with when your are considering a 2 platoon system?

Unless you are a large school, and even if that is the case, you have to play sophomores. We would have 3 or 4 sophs each year that would step up and play somewhere on the field.

IMO, you should have no less than 45-50 to even start to think about platooning. Now we did not have a freshman team, just a JV and Varsity. So if you can get 12-15 able bodied players out from each grade you can start to think about it.

[wildcat]

pantherpride91 said:

What are you total team numbers?

Probably about 50 kids on average 9-12.

[saintrad]

best 11 goes to defense .... the offense is made up of the rest

[pantherpride91]

wildcat said:

pantherpride91 said:

What are you total team numbers?

Probably about 50 kids on average 9-12.

What did the other kids that did not play do? At the school I am at now we are trying to work towards the 50 kid mark.

We had about 70 on average with 22 going one way and then about another 10-12 maybe that were on some sort of special team. We had about 30 that played full time jv which which also platooned.

[wildcat]

pantherpride91 said:

wildcat said:

Probably about 50 kids on average 9-12.

What did the other kids that did not play do? At the school I am at now we are trying to work towards the 50 kid mark.

We had about 70 on average with 22 going one way and then about another 10-12 maybe that were on some sort of special team. We had about 30 that played full time jv which which also platooned.

The kids who weren't on the team or the kids on the team who didn't play?

All of our juniors and seniors started somewhere. Almost all of the sophmores and a few freshmen started on the JV teams. We also played a 7-game freshmen schedule. Pretty much, the sophs and freshmen who didn't start in the JV game got to play in those.

We had about 4-5 sophs who were good enough to play varsity ball this year. They didn't start (except 1 and he started), but they played alot, especially towards the end of the season and in the playoffs.

[blb]

We are a school of 1700 and usually have 40-50 on varsity (juniors and seniors plus the rare sophomore).

We try to platoon as much as possible but there always are some kids that have to be on the field most of the time for us to compete. We had three two-way starters this year.

Also we have only three paid coaching positions at each level so it would be hard from that standpoint to two-platoon totally.

Our general philosophy is to play as many kids as much as possible without hurting our chances to win - play the game deciders until the game is decided.

[coachnorm]

Listen, there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue but the bottom line is you do what's best for your team. Platooning is great, but it isn't always the answer. Playing as many kids as possible should always be a goal if you can do it without hurting the team. Some schools aren't in a position in which platooning is even possible.
This year we had 24 players out 9-12 11 of those were Freshmen. Can you make a convincing argument that throwing those freshmen to the wolves as part of a varsity platoon system would have done them more good than letting them develop game experience and a few wins as part of a jv team? I don't think so....

[pantherpride91]

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

[pantherpride91]

coachnorm said:

Listen, there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue but the bottom line is you do what's best for your team. Platooning is great, but it isn't always the answer. Playing as many kids as possible should always be a goal if you can do it without hurting the team. Some schools aren't in a position in which platooning is even possible.
This year we had 24 players out 9-12 11 of those were Freshmen. Can you make a convincing argument that throwing those freshmen to the wolves as part of a varsity platoon system would have done them more good than letting them develop game experience and a few wins as part of a jv team? I don't think so....

Its hard to field a team, let alone two platoon people with that few of guys out.

[mib36]

Small schools can survive with platooning. Our Class 1AA (600-700 students) champions the last 6 years have all platooned. Even the Class 1A champions have platooned 4 out of 6 years. It can be done at the smaller schools. We almost completely platoon with the intention going into the season of doing it across the board. This year we had 2 kids play both ways and we are a 1AA school (700 kids). The past two years we have advanced at least 2 rounds and have lost to the eventual state champs both years. They 2 Platoon across the board. It works for every level. 4A and 5A schools can do it because they have athletes across the board who can play. 1A schools can do it because it rests studs and allows you to really coach all your kids up.

Scenario 1: You play all your studs both ways. Generally speaking you may play 5 guys both ways with six average guys starting with them. Your studs get tired as the game ans season progresses. Your studs become more average with the wear and tear. You have guys on your roster who could play some snaps but you don't coach them up since your studs play both ways.

Scenario 2: You platoon your kids. Your studs stay fresher throughout the year and can make a serious impact on whatever side they play on (hopefully D!). You coach all your kids up to find players around them, thus creating an atmosphere where every kid has the opportunity to win a job and be a part of your program. Your studs stay fresh and your kids are all coached.


Just a though, hell, people win every which way possible. Just depends on what works for you.

[wingt74]

Best 11 you have on defense.

Offense, best lineman you have, best QB...no other skill positions START both ways.

Then, work some of your starters from defense in on your offense and get them the ball a few times a game.

Thats how I do it. Works well

[brophy]

pantherpride91 said:

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

honestly, I think there is tremendous benefit to Freshmen programs.

The way we learned platooning was from Vic Boblett / Bob Reade (Geneseo, IL) - Field as many freshmen as you can. THIS is where your program is won and lost. Don't worry about the W/L of the freshmen, because it really doesn't matter. Get everyone LEARNING, PLAYING, and HAVING FUN. Kids get a primary and secondary position. Primary position, they play exclusively in the 1st half, then play their secondary position exclusively in the 2nd half. COACHING the kids fundamentals and basics is what it's all about here.

If you don't have freshmen numbers, you ain't gonna have numbers come Varsity. That talent pool generally diminishes from their Freshmen years, so you want to create the biggest pool of athletes (and parents) those freshmen year.

How can you do that? Get ALL the kids to come out (opportunity to play....more kids come out, more kids who's friends went out for football are more inclined at that impressionable age to follow suit).

"Programs" aren't just the Varsity program. Real "programs" are the Varsity through Middle School (feeder).

[tackle]

brophy,
When you say primary and secondary positions, Do you mean an offensive position and a defensive position? How many kids do you average on the freshmen level?

[superpower]

pantherpride91 said:

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

PLAY A FRESHMAN SCHEDULE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. We only had 10 freshmen this year, so we had to play some sophomores down with the freshmen in the freshmen games, but they all got lots of playing time and valuable experience. And some of the freshmen who didn't play this year are talking about playing next year because they saw how much playing time and fun they missed out on.

[brophy]

tackle said:

brophy,
When you say primary and secondary positions, Do you mean an offensive position and a defensive position? How many kids do you average on the freshmen level?

yes. Johnny Jingleheimerschmidt is 5'8" and fast as all get out, but can't catch. Maybe he is a better defensive back (primary) and is a backup receiver / back (secondary).

Freshmen classes typically are anywhere from 30 to as high as 60. Freshmen won't come out unless you recruit them. We had 3 - 4 feeder middle schools.....our freshmen turnout is directly related to how hard we keep up with the 7th & 8th grade football players coming in. Another tool we use to help us there is, I ran Spring weight lifting sessions during the week after school for ALL the 7th & 8th graders to attend (and receive instruction). Great time to develop relationships with the kids and get them excited about coming out. Kids are attention hounds.......any time you give them encouragement and take an interest in what they are doing (and not just what they are doing for us), they feel important.

[coachcb]

pantherpride91 said:

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

It all depends on how you do it. I coached a freshman team (2400 kids in school- 60 freshman out for ball). We went with a 5th and 6th quarter scheme. We were supposed to get as many kids in during the 1st 4 quarters and the play your absolute weakest players during the 5th and 6th. Needless to say, this was a poor plan..... Lot of ego involved with the 1st 4 quarters and lots of bad situations. There was a great deal of conflict between the OC and I because I split all the running backs we had into TB-FB pairs and rotated liberally. He wanted the best RBs in during the 1st 4 quarters and he even subbed some of the RBs out the play after I out them in. Terrible situation, terrible season.

I think that in large schools, a seperate freshman program is a great idea. Hire 4 freshman coaches, sit down and teach them what you want them to coach (drills, schemes, fundies, etc..) and then go from there. If you have freshman that can play at a higher level, then move them up, out of the freshman program. Split the freshman into 2 even teams and try to get each team a schedule. If you can't get a tandem schedule, then have each team alternate quarters.

Bottom line is simple with the freshman; teach them fundies on both side of the ball, keep your scheme simple and get them all playing football. I think a freshman coach really needs to ditch his ego at the door and focus on getting kids playing time and loving the game.

[juice10]

I need a little help understanding this. I realize that a full 2 platoon system, you are playing 22 different kids on O and D. What are the coaches doing when you are playing say 1,2,or even 3 kids both ways, how do you set up practice? Is it set up more like a full 2 platoon system practice, or is it something like Monday and Wednesday is offensive night and Tuesday and Thursday is Defensive night? Just looking for insight!!!

[phantom]

For the record, we're not a small school. We're a AAA and, not only do we not platoon but we didn't play a team who did this year, playoffs included. How do we practice? Monday- game plan, scouting report; Tuesday-offense; Wednesday-defense; Thursday-walkthrough.

[sls]

juice10 said:

I need a little help understanding this. I realize that a full 2 platoon system, you are playing 22 different kids on O and D. What are the coaches doing when you are playing say 1,2,or even 3 kids both ways, how do you set up practice? Is it set up more like a full 2 platoon system practice, or is it something like Monday and Wednesday is offensive night and Tuesday and Thursday is Defensive night? Just looking for insight!!!

We practice like a 1 platoon team, both O and D each day at opposite times. This enables us to give decent scout looks.

I guess the question you must ask yourself that we did was,

Are we better with a little less talented player who is fresh and specialized than with a stud who is playing 100-140 plays a game?

We are no huddle and went with less talented but fresh.

[0c]

I guess I feel out of place in this debate. I coach in a large school and only play other large schools. I can't imagine competing without a full platoon plus situational subs. We full platoon frosh "A" and "B" teams . Soph "A" and "B" JV and varsity. In each game we have subs as do almost every team we play. We have about 220-240 kids in the whole program 9-12.

[brophy]

I think no matter what side of the argument you're on........it is a chicken-or-the-egg debate for most.

[khalfie]

saintrad said:

best 11 goes to defense .... the offense is made up of the rest

Right...

But the best 11 usually includes the QB and stud HB... and more than likely the best WR...

How do you get around that... and more so, what about the kids who want to play offense... stud kids, that should be on offense, want to be on offense, but becauae they are the best... have to play defense... how do you work that out?

More so, what if you aren't good, team can't score... and you got studs on defense... who play good defense, but the other team still scores?

Sounds like a recipie for disaster.

[khalfie]

pantherpride91 said:

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

I don't see how there could ever be anything wrong with playing a freshmen schedule...

Its football... the kids are getting coached up to play... they are playing like competition... and its good experience...

I really don't understand this anti-freshmen schedule sentiment.

[brophy]

khalfie said:

pantherpride91 said:

do you guys think playing a freshman schedule might be another thing that hurts platooning? I have heard good and bad about the freshman games. Personally I have never been a part of a team that had freshman only games. Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

I don't see how there could ever be anything wrong with playing a freshmen schedule...

Its football... the kids are getting coached up to play... they are playing like competition... and its good experience...

I really don't understand this anti-freshmen schedule sentiment.

I'm not saying you SHOULD platoon, because everyone has their way doing things that is "right".

But for humor, take all your incoming Varsity players you'll have in 2007.

Have each coach rank ALL of those players, from most significant to least (athleticism and impact on team).

Of those players, have those coaches rank what positions each player would have the most impact at.

Get your coaches together and debate / set a preliminary depth chart and identify where your roster weakness will be at.

[wildcat]

khalfie said:

saintrad said:

best 11 goes to defense .... the offense is made up of the rest

Right...

But the best 11 usually includes the QB and stud HB... and more than likely the best WR...

How do you get around that... and more so, what about the kids who want to play offense... stud kids, that should be on offense, want to be on offense, but becauae they are the best... have to play defense... how do you work that out?

More so, what if you aren't good, team can't score... and you got studs on defense... who play good defense, but the other team still scores?

Sounds like a recipie for disaster.

Khalfie...

Good points.

What do you do with Johnny Dergo? LB or RB?

[groundchuck]

wildcat said:

khalfie said:

Khalfie...

Good points.

What do you do with Johnny Dergo? LB or RB?

Dergo...whatever you do make sure he gets 25 carries.

[texasokie]

To me...it depends on your situation.

If you are in your first year, then platooning may be beneficial to get and keep your numbers up. This allows you to evaluate what you have early on. As the season goes on and the kids have been given their opportunities to show you what they can do, then weed out the weak and go to your better players. You must show progress. Then sub as need be. In the 2nd and 3rd years, everyone expects more. Playing the best 11 on defense would be my main goal. Good defense takes some pressure off the offense. I want to feel like if we score 28, then we will win. Main thing is to get your kids to believe that whatever role is assigned to them is essential for team success. Sell them on the fact that they are a necessary ingredient for the team. Make them want to belong.

In a perfect world, we would all have enough athletes to platoon. If you are fortunate enough to be in that situation, then it should benefit you. But you can't platoon with non-athletes and be very successful. You have to pay the bills some how. In those situations, play your best kids and hope you get up early so all can play.