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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 22:27:33 GMT -6
We have a senior on our roster who's been our hardest worker, has been our leader in the offseason and was a starter last year at T and OLB, but he's way undersized for OL and just isn't very good at LB. He keeps the other players focused and is one of the few seniors we've got who's shown any leadership.
Now we've got a bunch of new players who've just came out this year, as well as some kids who quit and have now decided they'd like to play again. Realistically, this puts our hard worker in a spot where he's probably not our most talented player at any position if these other kids put in half the work he does.
We've made a pulling G out of him this year, which fits his skillset better, but we have 3 bigger, stronger, and more athletic (and lazy) kids who've just been "demoted" from FB to OL. They may or may not quit. Two of them have already quit and came back, while the third got kicked off for grades and is now back. If they stick and put forth any effort, they will probably outplay this kid.
Defensively, he's now running second team as a LB. He was the (distant) 3rd best last year and we have the 2 others back, as well as 2 newbies who are just better than him.
Athletic limitations and talent at other positions rule him out there, too.
So what would you do?
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Post by CS on Jul 23, 2014 4:46:49 GMT -6
Well individual talent can be overcome if he makes those around him play better. If he is the clear leader I would want him on the field in some way. And I just don't like counting on kids I can't trust
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Post by s73 on Jul 23, 2014 5:19:53 GMT -6
We have a senior on our roster who's been our hardest worker, has been our leader in the offseason and was a starter last year at T and OLB, but he's way undersized for OL and just isn't very good at LB. He keeps the other players focused and is one of the few seniors we've got who's shown any leadership. Now we've got a bunch of new players who've just shown came out this year, as well as some kids who quit and have now decided they'd like to play again. Realistically, this puts our hard worker in a spot where he's probably not our most talented player at any position if these other kids put in half the work he does. We've made a pulling G out of him this year, which fits his skillset better, but we have 3 bigger, stronger, and more athletic (and lazy) kids who've just been "demoted" from FB to OL. They may or may not quit. Two of them have already quit and came back, while the third got kicked off for grades and is now back. If they stick and put forth any effort, they will probably outplay this kid. Defensively, he's now running second team as a LB. He was the (distant) 3rd best last year and we have the 2 others back, as well as 2 newbies who are just better than him. Athletic limitations and talent at other positions rule him out there, too. So what would you do? I think the worst thing you can do is give the quitters the job and they turn around and burn you by quitting again, now you put the original kid back in but he's now bitter b/c he knows you were going to replace him. I would suggest you keep splitting time and see how committed the more talented kids are when they are clearly in a battle for a position. If they grow and mature into kids willing to work and compete for the job by showing regularly then make it a late decision. On the other hand, if they start to falter and don't earn your trust then play the kid you trust. The other thing I would suggest is to be point blank & HONEST w/ all of them about what you are truly thinking. Tell the quitters you think they could start but you don't trust them. Tell the leader that you trust him but he's got to step it up a bit and see what happens. If they all know where they stand then I believe in time the guy who's truly the best for the team will surface. JMO. |
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2014 6:56:50 GMT -6
We have a senior on our roster who's been our hardest worker, has been our leader in the offseason and was a starter last year at T and OLB, but he's way undersized for OL and just isn't very good at LB. He keeps the other players focused and is one of the few seniors we've got who's shown any leadership. Now we've got a bunch of new players who've just came out this year, as well as some kids who quit and have now decided they'd like to play again. Realistically, this puts our hard worker in a spot where he's probably not our most talented player at any position if these other kids put in half the work he does. We've made a pulling G out of him this year, which fits his skillset better, but we have 3 bigger, stronger, and more athletic (and lazy) kids who've just been "demoted" from FB to OL. They may or may not quit. Two of them have already quit and came back, while the third got kicked off for grades and is now back. If they stick and put forth any effort, they will probably outplay this kid. Defensively, he's now running second team as a LB. He was the (distant) 3rd best last year and we have the 2 others back, as well as 2 newbies who are just better than him. Athletic limitations and talent at other positions rule him out there, too. So what would you do? I think that all you can do is put him at the position where he can best help the team. I have no problem with rewarding him by putting him at the top of the depth chart for now but it's up to him to stay there. Other than that, I don't know. We've had good luck taking little tough guys who can't play LB and using them as situational pass rushers. Maybe you can make him special teams captain. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 23, 2014 9:34:11 GMT -6
The reliable leader starts every single time IMO.
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Post by spos21ram on Jul 23, 2014 10:00:31 GMT -6
Seems like we are kind of assuming everyone else on the team has screwd up in some way THIS SEASON. If the kids who came back this season after quitting haven't done anything wrong since they've been back then I wouldn't punish them. I agree with fantom. This kid would start at the top of the depth chart but if he's getting out played every week and there is someone better on our bench then he won't be at that position anymore. We would try to find him a spot somewhere.
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2014 10:02:42 GMT -6
The reliable leader starts every single time IMO. Even if he can't play? |
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 23, 2014 10:15:34 GMT -6
The reliable leader starts every single time IMO. Even if he can't play? Over kids who have proven multiple times to be unreliable? Yes. |
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Post by coachorm on Jul 23, 2014 10:30:07 GMT -6
I say leave him as your starter for right now. Those kids that you don't trust will either quit because they feel they are better or they will step it up and replace him. Either way he has earned the spot where he is at this point and these other jokers need to work and go through some adversity to show they are willing to stick it out before you trust them.
In the end for me if this kid isn't going to hurt my team reaching its goals then I want him on the field because you just can't replace good leadership. If he is going be a crutch though then, you have to do whats best for the team and a Good Leader will understand that concept.
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Post by blb on Jul 23, 2014 10:32:03 GMT -6
Over kids who have proven multiple times to be unreliable? Yes.
"proven multiple times to be unreliable"?
OP didn't say that.
Some are out for first time, some quit and came back - he didn't say they've quit more than once.
As for latter, they're teenagers-HS kids. Sometimes they do immature, impetuous things they regret later.
I don't think coaches (the adults) should hold grudges. Best players play.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 23, 2014 11:28:37 GMT -6
Sorry. I read the OL coming from fullback as they had quit before and quit after being moved. I didn't see the "might quit" again part.
Personally, if a kid quits, I let him come back but he has A LOT to prove. In this case, I have a kid who is reliable, a leader and a program guy vs a kid who's quit once and the OP feels will possibly quit again. It's a no brainer for me. Talent or not. I'm playing the kid I can rely on. I think you build your program on what a kid can be on his worst day, not what you think the could be on their best if everything works out awesome and they buy in. In that case, I'm taking old reliable leader everyday and twice on Sunday.
So, if best players play, why hold summer workouts at all? Just show up in August and whoever has the most talent plays.
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2014 11:39:38 GMT -6
Sorry. I read the OL coming from fullback as they had quit before and quit after being moved. I didn't see the "might quit" again part. Personally, if a kid quits, I let him come back but he has A LOT to prove. In this case, I have a kid who is reliable, a leader and a program guy vs a kid who's quit once and the OP feels will possibly quit again. It's a no brainer for me. Talent or not. I'm playing the kid I can rely on. I think you build your program on what a kid can be on his worst day, not what you think the could be on their best if everything works out awesome and they buy in. In that case, I'm taking old reliable leader everyday and twice on Sunday. So, if best players play, why hold summer workouts at all? Just show up in August and whoever has the most talent plays. I've seen a lot of guys make themselves the best player over the summer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 11:41:01 GMT -6
Seems like we are kind of assuming everyone else on the team has screwd up in some way THIS SEASON. If the kids who came back this season after quitting haven't done anything wrong since they've been back then I wouldn't punish them. I agree with fantom. This kid would start at the top of the depth chart but if he's getting out played every week and there is someone better on our bench then he won't be at that position anymore. We would try to find him a spot somewhere. Frankly, it's still too early to tell who's going to play better, which is one of the more frustrating things. Of those who are more talented, 2 of them skipped the 2 weeks of practice and all of weights in the offseason, while another hasn't shown anything since being sent down with the OL. So it's not so much what they did last season, it's what they did (or didn't do) in the offseason that's making me hesitant about expecting anything from them. I'm not trying to punish those kids, I just don't think we can count on them. If any one of them clicks, though, they will be the better player on the OL. At LB, it's not even close right now. We have 4 kids who are much better football players than this kid, though one has been very lazy and a distraction in practice: always making a show of half @$$ing or acting stupid during each drill to make people laugh. It's not that he's just having fun; he's actively trying to show that he's too cool for school, even though he's one of our top 3 LBs. We may even move a DE back there and have 5 kids who are better athletes and tacklers. The other one was there for everything and is a leader in terms of getting his teammates focused, etc. He's actually an ok all around athlete, but he's not good enough in any one area to make him a true fit for a position. |
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2014 11:58:10 GMT -6
Seems like we are kind of assuming everyone else on the team has screwd up in some way THIS SEASON. If the kids who came back this season after quitting haven't done anything wrong since they've been back then I wouldn't punish them. I agree with fantom. This kid would start at the top of the depth chart but if he's getting out played every week and there is someone better on our bench then he won't be at that position anymore. We would try to find him a spot somewhere. Frankly, it's still too early to tell who's going to play better, which is one of the more frustrating things. Of those who are more talented, 2 of them skipped the 2 weeks of practice and all of weights in the offseason, while another hasn't shown anything since being sent down with the OL. So it's not so much what they did last season, it's what they did (or didn't do) in the offseason that's making me hesitant about expecting anything from them. I'm not trying to punish those kids, I just don't think we can count on them. If any one of them clicks, though, they will be the better player on the OL. At LB, it's not even close right now. We have 4 kids who are much better football players than this kid, though one has been very lazy and a distraction in practice: always making a show of half @$$ing or acting stupid during each drill to make people laugh. It's not that he's just having fun; he's actively trying to show that he's too cool for school, even though he's one of our top 3 LBs. We may even move a DE back there and have 5 kids who are better athletes and tacklers. The other one was there for everything and is a leader in terms of getting his teammates focused, etc. He's actually an ok all around athlete, but he's not good enough in any one area to make him a true fit for a position. I believe strongly that linebackers are born, not made. That may be the case with this guy. If you put his hand in the dirt and take away pass responsibility you may have a player. Sometimes you have to look beyond the eye test. |
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Post by newt21 on Jul 23, 2014 17:37:32 GMT -6
How are the other kids picking up the schemes? How about technique, is his technique good enough to help him be successful? It seems to me that his football IQ should be higher, which will make it harder to keep him off the field. I'd rather have a less talented kid out there that knows what to do and will do what is asked of him over a kid that is more talented but may or may not do what is asked when he is asked to.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 23, 2014 17:40:49 GMT -6
I've seen a lot of guys make themselves the best player over the summer. I agree. I was more commenting on the "the best players play" comment. I've never understood that. So, if a kid is more naturally gifted, but is lazy, doesn't show up to anything and is a pain to be around, he plays over a kid that does everything you ask of him? If that's the case, why even have a summer program? |
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2014 17:51:24 GMT -6
I've seen a lot of guys make themselves the best player over the summer. I agree. I was more commenting on the "the best players play" comment. I've never understood that. So, if a kid is more naturally gifted, but is lazy, doesn't show up to anything and is a pain to be around, he plays over a kid that does everything you ask of him? If that's the case, why even have a summer program? To give the good kid a chance to catch up with the lazy one. If that doesn't happen, that's just how it goes. Best player plays. |
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Post by coach2013 on Jul 24, 2014 3:01:48 GMT -6
We have a senior on our roster who's been our hardest worker, has been our leader in the offseason and was a starter last year at T and OLB, but he's way undersized for OL and just isn't very good at LB. He keeps the other players focused and is one of the few seniors we've got who's shown any leadership. Now we've got a bunch of new players who've just came out this year, as well as some kids who quit and have now decided they'd like to play again. Realistically, this puts our hard worker in a spot where he's probably not our most talented player at any position if these other kids put in half the work he does. We've made a pulling G out of him this year, which fits his skillset better, but we have 3 bigger, stronger, and more athletic (and lazy) kids who've just been "demoted" from FB to OL. They may or may not quit. Two of them have already quit and came back, while the third got kicked off for grades and is now back. If they stick and put forth any effort, they will probably outplay this kid. Defensively, he's now running second team as a LB. He was the (distant) 3rd best last year and we have the 2 others back, as well as 2 newbies who are just better than him. Athletic limitations and talent at other positions rule him out there, too. So what would you do? If you are trying to build a PROGRAM than you need to set some standards.
Show your work ethic, establish trust, display your talents. That's the order it is done.
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Post by jasper912 on Jul 24, 2014 12:04:07 GMT -6
I agree with fantom. I think LBs are born. There are just certain instincts required to play the position. It sounds like this kid not only deserves to play somewhere, but if he is the only leader on your team then I would find a place for him. Try fantom's idea and put him on the DL.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 24, 2014 13:18:22 GMT -6
I don't know where you are in your pre-season or what you have been able to do so far but I would have to say that it is just way to early to tell what is gonna shake down with him. We don't make any kind of decision on starters until we see them when the bullets are flying for a few days. I know we start trying to put kids in position and think we know who the starters are before we go live but usually after the first two weeks it's not what we thought. I think kids like that usually find their way on to the field at some point, a kind of it's not where you start it's where you finish type deals.
If he does get beat out he can always help you in other ways, special teams would jump to mind or maybe even a different position on defense as others have said. If he's a decent athlete and tough put him on the DL for a switch up. Kind of create something for him to do that can help and boost them like that.
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Post by coach31 on Jul 24, 2014 15:56:59 GMT -6
I lose this argument a lot, but I am much more concerned about what a kid WILL DO as opposed to what he CAN DO. Potential and raw talent are great, but I don't want a guy who is vanish when it matters.
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Post by blb on Jul 24, 2014 16:00:06 GMT -6
I lose this argument a lot, but I am much more concerned about what a kid WILL DO as opposed to what he CAN DO. Potential and raw talent are great, but I don't want a guy who is vanish when it matters.
How do you determine that until you put pads on in practice or more so, the games start?
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Post by joelee on Jul 24, 2014 17:17:02 GMT -6
I start him at guard. No question about it.
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Post by blb on Jul 24, 2014 17:32:44 GMT -6
I start him at guard. No question about it.
Why?
coacharnold said he's not a "true fit for any position" and if three other kids get their acts together, they're all better than him.
Start him just because he's a good kid?
Sure, if the others don't GWTP when practice starts.
But if they do - all the kids will know you're not playing the best player(s), and then you have created a different kind of problem.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 19:49:51 GMT -6
Thanks for all the help, guys.
At this point, he's still the starter because no one has beaten him out. None of the lazier but more talented kids really show much signs of GWTP yet, so until they do, he's going to stay there. Even then, I'm not going to take his starting spot from him until I see film of a live scrimmage situation where he's being outplayed. He's earned that much, at least.
I just want to be prepared and have thought this out from all angles before I have to make that decision when the time comes, because it'll be tough. Our program is low on leadership--lots of lazy/whiny kids and selfish attitudes--and we badly need to encourage the ones who do put their best into it. If the rest of our team had the work ethic and team oriented mentality this kid has, we'd be competing for state.
For an idea of what kind of kid I'm talking about, he's 5'9" 170lbs, squats around 340, benches 175, and runs 5.65 in pads (5.3 without) as a SENIOR. He has ok hands and even throws an ok ball, but he's not even close to cracking the depth chart at WR, RB, or FB. Watching film on him from last year (I wasn't here), he was a liability at LB and on the OL at times, even though you could tell he was trying his best. Great kid, great attitude, great leader for the younger guys... just not very talented.
We've talked about playing him at DE, but we have others who can probably do that better, too.
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Post by freezeoption on Jul 24, 2014 20:51:52 GMT -6
I would play him at guard and find a place on defense for him, he can back up, on defense, but that way he has another spot to go to, you want a guy like that to play as much as possible, find a place he can play and let him get after it.
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Post by fantom on Jul 24, 2014 20:53:21 GMT -6
I start him at guard. No question about it.
Why?
coacharnold said he's not a "true fit for any position" and if three other kids get their acts together, they're all better than him.
Start him just because he's a good kid?
Sure, if the others don't GWTP when practice starts.
But if they do - all the kids will know you're not playing the best player(s), and then you have created a different kind of problem.
Then you have neither leadership or talent because it's impossible for him to be a leader if his teammates think that somebody else should be playing his position. |
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Post by veerman on Jul 24, 2014 21:50:32 GMT -6
I agree if the kids won't follow then he is not a leader. You just have a great kid. That's what is bad sometimes, you don't necessarily get to decide your leaders, you may get to on paper, but in reality the kids decide who is going to lead and follow. Sometimes you have exactly what you want and others you have not so much.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2014 5:50:01 GMT -6
At this point, he's still the starter because no one has beaten him out. None of the lazier but more talented kids really show much signs of GWTP yet, so until they do, he's going to stay there. Even then, I'm not going to take his starting spot from him until I see film of a live scrimmage situation where he's being outplayed. He's earned that much, at least.
Good idea. It's about performance, bottom line.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 6:12:11 GMT -6
I can not believe that there are people suggesting that you play more "talented" kids over a kid who does everything you ask of him. Is saving your own ass that important?
Don't play him over the lazy talented kids and your telling your team they don't need to GWTP, they just need to have talent. You will never see weight room attendance increase. Why should it? You're proving that you don't need to show up and buy in if you play these other kids over the kid who does every single thing you want out of him. And you're worried that a bunch of lazy, talented quitters won't follow him? The OP has already said the program has an issue with work ethic and GWTP. If you don't play this kid you just continue that cycle. This is a kid you use as an example of what you want out of your program. He doesn't play because of "talent" and you're never going to change the mindset of the kids in the program IMO.
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