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Post by jsk002 on Aug 27, 2014 11:22:02 GMT -6
How do you convince kids who have never had to work for anything that working hard pays off?
A few considerations:
- Small Roster and I can't just replace kids - Young team - not real vocal leaders - No real bad apples - I am just not sure they get it yet
I guess I am looking at motivational techniques, ideas on how to make sure they get it and techniques you guys use for today's kids. No doubt that they are a different breed.
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Post by coachirish on Aug 27, 2014 11:43:42 GMT -6
One thing I have found to be successful is charting "loafs" during game film. For every time a player loafs the team does an "extra". this helps since we cant always pull players off the field since we are usually a smaller team. it creates a positive peer pressure. the players dont want to loaf because if they do the rest of the team will feel it.
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Post by coachdubyah on Aug 27, 2014 11:48:39 GMT -6
Incentives, but not too many. We don't get too crazy with this, but you have to do some incentives. There was a thread on this section that was titled something like "Summer Workout Participation" that was awesome. Humbled me a bit.
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Post by coachdubyah on Aug 27, 2014 11:53:04 GMT -6
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Post by fantom on Aug 27, 2014 12:22:46 GMT -6
How do you convince kids who have never had to work for anything that working hard pays off? A few considerations: - Small Roster and I can't just replace kids - Young team - not real vocal leaders - No real bad apples - I am just not sure they get it yet I guess I am looking at motivational techniques, ideas on how to make sure they get it and techniques you guys use for today's kids. No doubt that they are a different breed. Do you film practice?
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Post by jsk002 on Aug 27, 2014 13:30:01 GMT -6
Who says you can't just replace kids? I'd much rather lose a game with kids who are busting their butt than to win with a field full of lazy slapa$$es. Even if you can't really replace them, you have to make that kid think you will. Yesterday a freshman CB was being lazy in INDY period, the position coach up/downed the entire unit because of him of his laziness. I think that was motivation to him. I pulled him off to the side during water break and asked him how many guys were in the DB group. He said "IDK, 25?" I said "and we only play 4 at a time. You're a good player and we would like to have you but you aren't necessary. We do not NEED you, we have 24 more guys. Think about that." I have 8 DBs in my total program...I agree with what you are saying, but realisticly I am better finding additional ways to motivate.
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Post by jsk002 on Aug 27, 2014 13:32:44 GMT -6
How do you convince kids who have never had to work for anything that working hard pays off? A few considerations: - Small Roster and I can't just replace kids - Young team - not real vocal leaders - No real bad apples - I am just not sure they get it yet I guess I am looking at motivational techniques, ideas on how to make sure they get it and techniques you guys use for today's kids. No doubt that they are a different breed. Do you film practice? @ Fantom - in certain situations I do. That is actually something I will do today in order to help this situation. Given our resources, it's not realistic to film every practice and every single drill. There are six coaches total for us and I don't really have managers available for this.
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Post by jsk002 on Aug 27, 2014 13:34:26 GMT -6
Thanks Guys - keep it coming.
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Post by gibbs72 on Aug 27, 2014 14:03:30 GMT -6
I tried something outside the box a couple years ago. My secondary was being very lazy, so I coached that way. I lolly-gagged to the drills, didn't pay attention during drills, created a "scout" book with a bunch of chicken scratch plays that were not in order, etc. About half-way through skelly, my starting FS made some type of comment about my not being focused or acting like I cared that day. After that drill, I brought my secondary together and had him repeat what he said. I finished it with, "Now, that is what it's been like being around you guys when you are lazy. . ." It worked for that group because they were good kids: they got the message.
Now, at practice, I will sometimes say, "Guys, if you want to practice to be great, I'll coach you to be great. I you want to practice and be mediocre, then I don't have to put in as much time and my wife will see more of me." Generally, they pick it up after that.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 27, 2014 18:13:05 GMT -6
How do you convince kids who have never had to work for anything that working hard pays off? A few considerations: - Small Roster and I can't just replace kids - Young team - not real vocal leaders - No real bad apples - I am just not sure they get it yet I guess I am looking at motivational techniques, ideas on how to make sure they get it and techniques you guys use for today's kids. No doubt that they are a different breed. With small numbers-- perhaps individual meetings to watch GAME film, particularly film where the kids who weren't working hard are getting their butt handed to them. I know it sounds stupid, but my HS program was poor. We were not very hard workers, particularly in the offseason--yet it NEVER occurred to us (well, me, but I was a captain, and one of the guys who cared most about football) until AFTER that there was correlation. I really think it would have benefited me to have someone (in private) really point out every thing wrong, and show "here you are getting manhandled, here you are not blocking a soul... " etc etc.
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Post by jsk002 on Aug 27, 2014 21:03:32 GMT -6
Thanks Guys, all really good suggestions - I think we have the situation addressed. Effort was better today. We filmed some practice, I had some individual conversations, a team conversation and we moved our two RBs to OL. We got at least five guys there now that want / know how to work. Like I said, we are young, so hopefully the younger guys learn from these kids. Had a few bad apples that I think we have addressed.
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 28, 2014 7:56:19 GMT -6
We film practice whenever we can for multiple reasons. Sometimes the kids don't realize they are being lazy. It's also good to watch and see how much time you waste at practice.
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Post by jsk002 on Aug 28, 2014 9:36:33 GMT -6
dcohio - why do you make me feel like I am defending myself ;-)
In all seriousness, I agree with your philosophy. We play our best and we set expectations. In this instance - I just wanted to hear about alternative ways to motivate because replacing players isn't always an option in my circumstance. We did end-up replacing some of those guys, but we had to move our two best RBs down to OL to do it. But I think the message was sent and received. We have no RBs anymore - but that's a different problem.
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 28, 2014 11:41:37 GMT -6
Some kids step up and others are weak and fall behind. I haven't been happy with the play at our center position all year (shot gun spread team.) Had 2 different guys working in and neither of them were getting it done. Kept saying I was looking for someone to step up there. Kid comes up to me and tells me he wants to try. TBH, he's just a sophomore and I blew him off. Told him to grab another linemen and go practice snaps but to basically stay out of our way. I look over and this kid is snapping the ball like no one else on our team.
I go back over, tell him he has now peaked my interest and to start studying the playbook more. I threw him in there the very next day and the kid knew most of the plays. The other 2 centers were pouting instead of practicing harder. Guess who is now starting tomorrow night. Yep, I'm going to start the sophomore.
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 28, 2014 11:42:45 GMT -6
BTW, my other coaches said, "this kid can't block." My response was, "neither are the other 2 centers, at least this kid gets the ball back to the QB much quicker."
I'll try to remember to let you guys know how it goes.
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 29, 2014 9:11:35 GMT -6
He said "I was trying to make sure everyone was doing their job." I said "How'd that work out for you?" Still. Laughing.
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Post by brophy on Aug 29, 2014 9:24:34 GMT -6
How do kids have the ability/power to decide whether or not they give effort in practice?
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Post by joelee on Aug 29, 2014 9:45:34 GMT -6
They come by it honestly really; from not being held accountable by youth coaches and middle school coaches.
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Post by brophy on Aug 29, 2014 9:52:15 GMT -6
They come by it honestly really; from not being held accountable by youth coaches and middle school coaches. why does any of that matter, though? If we're setting the pace and expectations as coaches, they may not want to give effort or work hard, but if we are pushing the group and dictating how fast we will work and immediately correcting loafs in practice (not waiting until Friday night), what does it matter?
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Post by joelee on Aug 29, 2014 10:24:25 GMT -6
I agree with you. I just wanted to point the finger a little at what I consider an underrated factor. I hate blaming kids all the time like some coaches in my area like to do. Not you Brophy. I'd just like to get some freshmen who weren't needing so much work on other things and we could just coach football, you know?
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Post by newhope on Aug 29, 2014 10:28:49 GMT -6
To me, it is about setting expectations for practice and then demanding that those expectations be met. Yuo expect hard work--a certain level of effort in everything you do. Everytime you don't get that in practice, you call attention to it. They do it over full speed. Maybe they do up downs, maybe they run. You also praise effort and hard work and reward it. It can't be some time, it has to be all the time and you and your staff have to stay on top of it and demand it until it becomes ingrained in what they do all the time. It's not easy, but you can do it if you're willing to put in the effort it takes. If you have good kids and no bad apples, they'll buy in. It's like everything else--you teach it through repetition of doing it the right way.
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Post by coachdubyah on Aug 29, 2014 10:51:55 GMT -6
An update to Jimmy. Even though all week Sammy has started with the 1's and Jimmy has been rotating in, yesterday was no different, Sammy started with the 1's...Jimmy rotated in. After practice Jimmy comes up to me and asks "so...am I not starting tomorrow?" I said "no" He seemed shocked for a second and then he said "that's bullchit, I have busted my @$$ to play. Why am I not starting?" I said "Why would I play you over Sammy? You played in the second scrimmage, you stayed at linebacker depth, you didn't come down hill and honestly, you didn't really have much of an impact. Sammy played in the 3rd scrimmage, he was always down hill, made a lot of plays. You both practiced well this week and it seems like you have corrected your downhill problem but the last time you were on the field in a game situation you weren't aggressive and Sammy was fully aggressive like a linebacker should be." He said "his defensive line didn't get pushed back into his lap all night like they did in the first scrimmage." I said "first that's a BS excuse and 2nd he wasn't standing around back there for them to get pushed back into, he got his read, he trusted it and he went and he made plays. The Dline wasn't a problem in the first scrimmage for the WILL linebacker...he made plays...he got his read, trusted it and went - you didn't and now you're standing here giving me some lame@$$ excuse to try to justify your bad play." He said "I was trying to make sure everyone was doing their job." I said "How'd that work out for you?" He just glared at me. I said "seems to me like you should have been more worried about doing your job." When he walked away he was livid. He didn't say anything else but I think he's finally embraced his anger issues and I cannot wait to see him play tonight. He is 6'2" 220 lbs, very strong, very smart (to smart sometimes) and I've been trying to get him to just turn it loose, to trust his instincts and teammates and just do it like I know he is capable of...if that kid will just turn it loose...he has a D1 scholarship kid in front of him at 3 tech...he doesn't even realize how many plays he will make and how great we can be as a defense. This kid is a great kid and his parents are awesome. But mentally he's a hold over from last year's group. He expected to play no matter what just like last year's seniors (good kids, not bad mouthing them, I love them, but their jobs weren't ever up for grabs and they knew it). I don't think the thought of not starting ever entered his head. Sometimes I think we coach at the same school...had this same discussion with a DL/OL that has all the skills in the world along with the size to be a BCS Conference player. Right now he's a JUCO recruit that could wind up at a BCS program. SEC recruiter/coach says he could start as an Offensive Tackle for them by his JR season. They love him.....But, L@meAss excuses similar to what you just told us are going to scare off a lot of schools. His work ethic sucks and looks like a world beater against mediocre competition. I'm taking the approach as you are...we will see how this plays out. Great Post!
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Post by brophy on Aug 29, 2014 11:43:52 GMT -6
How do kids have the ability/power to decide whether or not they give effort in practice? I don't think it's actually them deciding whether or not they give effort. I honestly believe they think they are giving a good effort all the time. Maybe not their best effort, but I think they think they are giving good effort. It's getting them to give more effort and eventually their max effort that is the plight of coaching. that's kind of the point, though. " Run your fastest" is different than " run 12 mph" If they are not running 12 mph, it is because we aren't setting the pace and holding them accountable immediately. If a kid is not hustling in practice, its because the coaches allow it. Whether it is practice or on the job, set the standard and expectations and push people to perform at that level and accept nothing less. If they don't, they need to be correctly there and now. If kids aren't busting ass in a drill, stop the drill, and punish the group until the standard is fully understood. If the kids aren't busting ass in TEAM, stop the team, and punish the TEAM until that expectation of effort is acknowledged.
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 29, 2014 11:46:31 GMT -6
Yeah it's not jogging on and off the field for water breaks in middle school for 3 months instead of the sitting on the couch eating cheetos and playing video games for 6 months between middle school and freshman year that makes 'em lazy.
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
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Post by biggus3 on Aug 29, 2014 21:58:53 GMT -6
It may be just my team, but it seems to me that the kids today do not respond to a coach putting a foot up his butt and mass punishment. They aren't Navy seals that are gluttons for being miserable. Trust me, that is the space that I am most comfortable operating in. As a former linebacker, football to me was about squatting till you puked, running sprints until you passed out, and being a sociopath on the field. Not the case with these kids. Whenever practice is centered around fun competitive drills, with music cranked up, they fly around and give their best effort without having to be cajoled about it. Whenever I get pissed and start chewing kids out, they shut down and just try to endure the day.
Usually, I can tell when we are going to win because the kids are annoying me. They are loose, joking around, dancing and doing stupid crap aka having fun playing ball. If they approach the field locked in, with a business like demeanor like i prefer, we usually start slow because we are trying to figure how tough the other team is before we start playing hard, spot them a couple scores, and we may or may not dig ourself out of that hole. Our standard has shifted from being a bunch of hard @asses who put out, to a team that requires your most positive attitude everyday. If their is a kid who is dragging down the group by his attitude or body language, I usually will pull him aside quietly and tell him to go clean the shed where our equipment is stored, so his teammates can't see him.
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Post by CS on Aug 30, 2014 5:01:40 GMT -6
Nobody has asked this so I will. Do they know what they are supposed to do? We will make the kids bounce for lack of effort but honestly that's for team period. The only times I have had any problems with effort in Indy is when I introduce a new drill and the kids aren't very good at it or feel they aren't very good at it.
Once we have run through it for a few practices they start to get it and they fly around. I'm not saying this like nobody else knows this just that nobody has asked. Do they know what they are supposed to do and have you given them the time to learn how to do it?
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Post by gibbs72 on Sept 3, 2014 8:14:19 GMT -6
Amazing how that works, isn't it?
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Post by rosey65 on Sept 4, 2014 7:03:29 GMT -6
Being a younger coach, I always thought it was easier for me to relate to and motivate the kids on my OL. Personal relationships and mentoring and all that jazz....but for 2 years I had a core group that just never bought in. It wasn't just my group, the team mindset was cancerous. There were a few kids who bought in and were (are) successful, but for a variety of reasons, the bulk of the team fought everything we did. Good kids did their own thing, bad kids did their own thing...5 D-1 signees turned into 2 signees and 3 HS dropouts, 6 seniors quit during the season, including a receiver in the 1st quarter of a game when the RB caught a td (he just walked off the field), we went 7-13 over 2 years with great athletes.
Sorry to be a debbie downer, and I dont know if this is being constructive...I am very positive, I get visibly upset maybe twice a year and it is always about non-nonchalant play (and the kids know it) My expectations are clear from the 1st day of the offseason. We coach effort and hard work through a variety of drills. 9 years at this school have netted 7 years of over-achieving teams of great hard-working, disciplined, winning decent athletes, and we had 2 years of frustrating studs.
And I guess to specifically answer your "techniques" question...I calmly coach them on how I want football to be played. We do a drill early on, where they block a bag to the whistle. Then I put the whistle in my pocket and they go for 30-40 seconds. They do 1 or 2 reps. "Guys, this isnt a punishment drill, that is football. You dont know where the RB is behind you. As long as we block like this during games, we wont do this drill again." They also hit a bag, then when it falls over they spring 30 yards downfield and drive a second bag. I tell them the same things, but this time about getting downfield to block. We will repeat one of those drills once as the season goes on, but they learn very quickly. Our LT consistently blocks too high, and I show him on game film, so before practice he and only him gets 5 minutes in the chutes. He and the rest of the OL know it isn't punishment, it is an area of him game that still needs work.
Mike Leach said at the AFCA convention "You either coach it, or you allow it to happen" but sometimes, the horse dies of dehydration standing next to the trough. hardest thing i've been around...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 10:41:42 GMT -6
Who says you can't just replace kids? I'd much rather lose a game with kids who are busting their butt than to win with a field full of lazy slapa$$es. Even if you can't really replace them, you have to make that kid think you will. Yesterday a freshman CB was being lazy in INDY period, the position coach up/downed the entire unit because of him of his laziness. I think that was motivation to him. I pulled him off to the side during water break and asked him how many guys were in the DB group. He said "IDK, 25?" I said "and we only play 4 at a time. You're a good player and we would like to have you but you aren't necessary. We do not NEED you, we have 24 more guys. Think about that." I agree with every bit of this, but... You can lose with the hard worker just as well as you can the lazy athlete, but when you're losing and there are much better athletes on the sideline, you better be awfully secure in your job. Some places won't give you long, especially if those kids just walk away, and then their teammates start walking away because you're losing by 42 each week because you're playing "coaches' pets" over supposed "studs," especially when you go from having 30 on the roster to 16 after you flush out the turds and keep the choirboys. When you have 5 or 6 healthy DBs in your entire program, telling the slappy you don't need him doesn't have the same effect. The reality is that you do need him, if only to have a warm body to dress, and everyone knows it. When SEC John, your stud LT, is dogging it and getting outworked by Eagle Scout Joe, the 5'4 120lb freshman, do you really bench SEC John and cripple your other players shot at winning just to make that point? Note that I'm not talking about benching SEC John in favor of a guy who's outplaying him, as DCOhio did in his example, or even playing someone who's giving you something close to the same production. Sometimes, especially with a small roster, the drop off is so severe that half@ssers get away with it because they're still more productive half@ssing than the next guy is going all out. This is a tough nut to crack in a lot of places. It's a coach's job to instill work ethic and discipline, but the realty is that players' acceptance of both is based largely on the culture they're raised in and around. You have a balancing act, especially at the small school level. Just getting kids to show up for practice every day was a challenge at my last school and it was that way in every sport. Along with punishing players promptly for loafing and benching them, I think you need to look at positive reinforcement as well, like no conditioning sprints if everyone busts it in every drill, free stuff/swag to your hardest workers in practice, feeding them McDonald's on Thurs. if they earn it with a good week of practice, etc.
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Post by jasper912 on Sept 5, 2014 7:47:56 GMT -6
My sophomore Center is still starting. The kid honestly isn't the best blocker, but he gives max effort on every play. I love his effort, the speed of his snap, and his youth. Can't believe I pretty much blew this kid off.
Trying another experiment now. Have a kid, fastest kid on the team. Doesn't have any control and isn't very smart. He is ALWAYS 100 MPH no matter what. So I've put him at my X position and told him that whenever he is in, all he has to do is run a streak. I told my QB (who is very smart) look, I don't care what the X is supposed to have. If Jim is in, he is running a streak.
This kid too, has been staying after practice working on getting better. I love trying to give these types of kids a chance. I also make sure the rest of my team knows and understands why these guys are getting a chance.
I'm also 100% honest with my kids. I make sure they know if they have a crappy attitude, or they are lazy, or "always hurt" that I will make sure and let the college coaches know that. If you're one of those guys you better not put me down for a reference on a job either, cause I'm not going to ruin my name for it. I have to many other kids who deserve that help for me to ruin it for them.
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