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Post by coachf8 on Oct 22, 2014 12:23:52 GMT -6
I'm at a school where our kids are just "nice" kids. I've talked to a few assistants who have been on previous staffs here and a few former head coaches and I've been told that this has always been an issue here. It's a suburban area, all nice families, completely opposite of the steel town I'm from. We have good skill players but inside the tackles we get pushed around. It's not because our kids aren't taught proper technique, we don't lack size(smallest kid on the line is 230), it just seems we have a lot of nice polite passive kids. I've gone two seasons here, I've tried multiple things to get that football mentality needed to play on the line and I'm running out of ideas. Has anyone out there been able to create a switch for these type of kids to turn on when they put the helmet on because these kids don't have a mean bone in their body.
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Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2014 15:37:17 GMT -6
why do they have to be mean?
why not just be competitive?
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Post by coachorm on Oct 22, 2014 17:14:25 GMT -6
why do they have to be mean? why not just be competitive? I think this is a big misconception a lot of coaches make and could be its own thread. Competitive is what we want but often we think the answer is being meaner. I think you need kids that want to compete and will not accept losing in any way shape or form. I also think if that kid has a mean streak it doesn't hurt.
One thing we do is constantly preach to our kids about "flipping the switch". We try to make them understand that when you step on the field you have to be a competitor in everything you do from stretching, to indy, to halfline, team, conditioning, etc. As a coach you need to look for those moments when a kid does flip that switch and praise the heck out of it and make him feel good about it. Even if he fails at what he is doing if he showed that competitive fire praise it.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 22, 2014 19:54:53 GMT -6
I get what your saying and I also agree with the other posters. It's juts very hard or rare to have "nice" kids who are competitive,agressive, and have a hate to lose attitude. I have always believed agression cannot be taught or learned. It's kind of like speed. You're either born with it or not. I've seen plenty of kids who are competitive, hate to lose, yet look scared to hit on defense. I would take mean agressive kids any day as long as they can follow team rules and stay out of trouble. We are in the same boat. We have great kids, but they aren't really football players. Unfortunately we are playing football.
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Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2014 20:07:26 GMT -6
I'd rather have a kid that gives you 100% effort on every play and does it right, than to have a Vontaze Burfict out there being a complete buffoon to show how 'aggressive' he is. Just do your job RIGHT, at 100%, and we'll call it a win....we don't need all that demonstrative nonsense.
You know how you get kids to care and refusing to quit?
You enable them to INVEST in the outcome. Give them the opportunity to spend the next 7 months training in a structured weight program, allowing them to gain as many competitive wins with the group. Most folks hear that and say, "yeah...I know...but give me another answer"
"Mean" (i.e. manifestations of frustrated, emotional outbursts) is the shortcut when hard work and process is too tough.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 22, 2014 20:09:41 GMT -6
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards This is the mentality that kills competitiveness. That statement makes the thousands hours of hard work meaningless. If a player is born with it, why should he work hard? He already got it. If he isn't, then why bother?
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biggus3
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by biggus3 on Oct 22, 2014 20:18:36 GMT -6
I personally like a mean streak. When I was in college as a freshman I played on the scout team as a Olb. The starting guard was an all American who would absolutely try to maim me on any type of kick out play, he would drive me ten yards out, pick me up, slam me into the ground and lay on me. We got into fights about twice a week. He forced me to learn perfect technique, stay low and give my best effort every play because if I didn't I knew I was going to get crushed. He also made me motivated to put on forty pounds in the offseason. Turns out coaches like a scout team kid who busts his ass and lifts hard and I got to start the next year. We were doing pass rush drills during two a days and I hit him with a little jab step followed by a bull rush and I picked his ass up and through him into the dummy. I just helped him up and said pay back is a b*tch and went to the end of the line .the point is that because he was a prick to me all the time it brought up my level of play exponentially. We had a lot of good battles and respected each other and are now great buddies
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 22, 2014 20:23:38 GMT -6
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards This is the mentality that kills competitiveness. That statement makes the thousands hours of hard work meaningless. If a player is born with it, why should he work hard? He already got it. If he isn't, then why bother? I don't follow your reasoning here. spos21ram was talking about aggressiveness. That has little to do with the "hard work" involved in football. A player can be competitive-- he might win every sprint, he might compete his behind off in many of the drills/agilities etc, but still may not be aggressive or may not be a physical player.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 22, 2014 20:37:29 GMT -6
This is the mentality that kills competitiveness. That statement makes the thousands hours of hard work meaningless. If a player is born with it, why should he work hard? He already got it. If he isn't, then why bother? I don't follow your reasoning here. spos21ram was talking about aggressiveness. That has little to do with the "hard work" involved in football. A player can be competitive-- he might win every sprint, he might compete his behind off in many of the drills/agilities etc, but still may not be aggressive or may not be a physical player. I don't know why we can't see it, but I highlighted "Either you're born with it or you aren't." Maybe that helps you understand what I really meant.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 22, 2014 20:43:51 GMT -6
I don't follow your reasoning here. spos21ram was talking about aggressiveness. That has little to do with the "hard work" involved in football. A player can be competitive-- he might win every sprint, he might compete his behind off in many of the drills/agilities etc, but still may not be aggressive or may not be a physical player. I don't know why we can't see it, but I highlighted "Either you're born with it or you aren't." Maybe that helps you understand what I really meant. Yes, because many believe that you INDEED are "either born with" or "aren't born with" physical aggression. Aggression does not = competitiveness, nor does completely equal football playing ability.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 22, 2014 22:05:53 GMT -6
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards This is the mentality that kills competitiveness. That statement makes the thousands hours of hard work meaningless. If a player is born with it, why should he work hard? He already got it. If he isn't, then why bother? I never said a kid is a born football player or not. We as coaches teach technique, rules of the game, life lessons, how to work with others as a unit, etc. That's what we spend thousands of hours on. I said agressiveness is extremely hard to teach, and honestly I don't think it can be done. Agressive to me means a kid with a motor that loves contact, doesn't shy away from it. Someone who runs through ball carriers or tacklers with no hesitation. Not every agressive kid is a douchbag, but you know what, some are, and they are just another challange for us as coaches to harness that agression, keep them out of trouble, and hopefully get them to be functioning members of society. Just because a kid is a mean SOB ahole doesn't mean he's a criminal, but it's not a surprise that there are constantly players in the news for assault, domestic abuse, and other agressive acts. To play at the NFL level at most positions (RB, LB, DL, Safeties,) you have to be agressive by nature or you aren't making it that far. It's a sport where aggressive people excel. The best local example I can give is a safety that played in the NFL for a few years that we played against. He was extremely agressive, a mean sob on the field, but from what I knew and heard of him, he was a good kid off the field. There's no way his style of play could be taught or coached. You could call it football instinct. I can guarentee with almost 100% certainty that this kid was the best player on the field from the first day he stepped on a field. I don't know if it's just our town or what, but lately our players lack that football instict/awareness. I strongly beleive that the lack of instictiveness is due to backyard football being virtually extinct. Give me a handful of players that are agressive and have football instinct and we are winning a whole lot of football games. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by nltdiego on Oct 22, 2014 22:15:41 GMT -6
Brophy,
How do you do this in weight room?
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Post by coachf8 on Oct 23, 2014 5:22:26 GMT -6
Maybe mean/aggressive aren't the words I'm looking for. I'm sure we've all had that one kid every year that makes us say "Man if I just had 10 more of those guys". For instance, this year it's our MLB/FB. Off the field he's a typical kid makes jokes, is polite and nice to teachers, gets As and Bs but when he gets on that field, he wants to hurt someone. Every drill, every team session, every inside run period, he just plays .... well, mean. It's no coincidence that he leads the team in tackles with 91 going into week 9 and to top it all of he's just a sophomore. If I could get that same intensity out of my big boys up front things could be different but those guys are just the complete opposite. Doesn't matter what you do, what you say, you can't get them to play mean, they're all just passive quiet kids, non-confrontational type and I don't know how to change that, I don't if you can change that but figured it was worth asking.
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Post by olinecoach70 on Oct 23, 2014 6:43:04 GMT -6
I tend to agree that being "mean" or aggressive is something you either have or don't have. I also believe that you can eventually instill competitiveness into them to a certain extent. We used competitive activities in the weight room and off season workouts. One spring we even finished every practice with "competition period". In each case the winners received a positive experience and the losers had a negative experience. Nothing crazy. Winners got water or were able to sit out on a few sprints while losers had push ups or a few extra sprints. We did non football things, and tried to get creative. Just to put them in situations where if they didn't compete and think of the run, immediate negative consequences occurred. I have had "mean" kids that didn't compete worth a flip.We live in a video game society where victory is just one reset button away. I'll take any kid who can be coached up and play & compete his tail off until the whistle stops blowing. If we can get a few with a mean streak, especially up front, then we are super excited. For those big guys up front make it special. Get em some T-Shirts, let them create a nick name for the O-Line/D-Line, things like that. If there is some success and it means something to play on the o-line there they will compete and take pride and beating their assigned man.
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Post by joelee on Oct 23, 2014 8:02:22 GMT -6
I won a state championship at a private school with a bunch of funny, mostly affluent, but competitive kids. Now i'm at a public school and our OL coach likes to say "you can't win with milk drinkers, we want whiskey drinkers around here". I just roll my eyes.
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Post by joelee on Oct 23, 2014 8:12:00 GMT -6
An answer to the op post is that you reward things you want. To me its about the result not the character trait that we assume leads to the result. Results are measurable. Example some would say an OL that drives people to the whistle, finishes every block and tries to put people on the ground is because they are mean and aggressive. Just teach your kids the end result and reward it. Have pancake supper for the kid with the most knockdowns. Give a steak to the kid who finishes blocks the best. Give helmet stickers to kids demonstrating results. Jump up and get loud and pat a kid on the back in practice for being aggressive. Call kids out on the spot by name in front of everybody for being aggressive. "I see you John, attaboy!"
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Post by rsmith627 on Oct 23, 2014 8:21:23 GMT -6
I think it can be taught, and it ties in directly to culture. You need to cultivate kids who LOVE this game. It isn't easy, and if I had a quick fix for it I'd be a top notch HC somewhere, probably above the high school level. I can tell you it all starts with culture building, and that we as coaches have to work hard early on to instill the culture in our kids. Once we do this, it will carry over and the kids will improve. Sometimes it just takes that one special class that really gets it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Oct 23, 2014 9:08:53 GMT -6
My buddies that fight dogs feed 'em gun powder.
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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2014 9:47:07 GMT -6
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Post by olinedude on Oct 23, 2014 10:18:21 GMT -6
I don't get this. I've seen a lot of "nice" kids win a ton of games and championships in Texas. You want lineman to get off the ball faster and more aggressive? teach them the exact technique you want and go get after it. You want a linebacker to get down hill and go hit aggressively? Teach him to read his keys and go fast with proper tackling technique. If you teach kids to execute their position they will be good, and with that comes the confidence to play fast. "Mean" or not, players that execute their coached technique win football games.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 23, 2014 10:55:52 GMT -6
For me it's about that extra little push. I don't want unnecesary roughness, but something like that. For linemen, I want my guys to make it 4 quarters of hell for the other team. Of course they need to have their sh*t covered and do their assignments. But besides that, I want them to want to physically put their opponent in pain. Not by punching or any mean-girlie tricks, but not just doing your assignment, but taking honor in punishing your opponent. I want attitude!
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Post by brophy on Oct 23, 2014 11:56:03 GMT -6
For me it's about that extra little push.
I want them to want to physically put their opponent in pain. I want attitude! nothing wrong with wanting something else...but you'd have to ask yourself WHY?What does it provide or give YOU? I may only need 2 aspirins for a migraine, but damn if I ain't taken 6 of those bad boys to AMP the effect up! Is there a medical need for it? No.....but it makes ME feel better knowing I'm throwing the book at this headache. Its important to understand this kind of stuff (what we're really after), because we'll waste A LOT of time trying to slap our kids around for them to "get a mean on", frustrating ourselves because they have a different personality, without really making progress to the meaningful result.
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Post by dubber on Oct 23, 2014 14:06:04 GMT -6
I agree with Brophy. Usually passivity comes from a lack of confidence. This could be a lack of confidence in assignment or technique. I would not over look that. IF that is not the case, then the confidence comes from a lack of competitive situations. Usually, in households where there are 3+ brothers, the youngest one ends up the "meanest". It is not because he was pounded on.....it was because he learned early that backing down from competition was NOT an option. This attitude can be taught, and inside a well structured weight program is the best place to do it. My company publishes a monthly pdf of the top producers across the country. This information serves one purpose: spur competition. Soon guys are pushing themselves to levels they wouldn't have achieved one their own. Which is the same idea as this: What gets measured, matters. What matters, gets done.
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Post by CoachBrownAZ on Oct 23, 2014 14:16:06 GMT -6
I don't care if my guy is "mean" or not.
I just care if he can do the job on the "mean" SOB across from him.
I have enough meanness and edge for all my players... I'd rather them be poised and do their job. My job is to teach them their football with full confidence so if they face the mean guy they have the technique in their tool box to beat him.
We sometimes confuse mean with talent.
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Post by jg78 on Oct 23, 2014 16:30:35 GMT -6
If talent is all the same, I prefer smart, high character kids who play with a lot of heart. I have had players that I would consider "mean" and that's perfectly fine as long as they do the right things, play under control, and there are no attitude issues. I like that a lot. But a good kid with an engine is what I like best.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 24, 2014 7:26:37 GMT -6
For me it's about that extra little push.
I want them to want to physically put their opponent in pain. I want attitude! nothing wrong with wanting something else...but you'd have to ask yourself WHY?What does it provide or give YOU? I may only need 2 aspirins for a migraine, but damn if I ain't taken 6 of those bad boys to AMP the effect up! Is there a medical need for it? No.....but it makes ME feel better knowing I'm throwing the book at this headache. Its important to understand this kind of stuff (what we're really after), because we'll waste A LOT of time trying to slap our kids around for them to "get a mean on", frustrating ourselves because they have a different personality, without really making progress to the meaningful result. Then why do we praise pancakes? When are they ever neccesary?
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Post by brophy on Oct 24, 2014 8:33:04 GMT -6
Then why do we praise pancakes? When are they ever neccesary? that's why it is important to completely articulate what you're after. We may say "throw harder" to a QB, but that isn't telling, teaching, instructing him on what, exactly, he is to do to achieve this. As football coaches, we are instructors of execution for the game, not cheerleaders. Pancakes happen because not only does a player get a good fit, effective hip explosion into the defender, but he has exceptional EFFORT to drive on an opponent. All that {censored} is teachable, enforceable and can be replicated without emotion or some personality quirk. You said you want kids to want to injure their opponent. How do you teach that?
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 24, 2014 9:10:26 GMT -6
Our center is a mean, aggressive kid.
I can't stand the little SOB some days because he's lazy and he misses about 1 in 10 snaps in the gun.
Much rather have a grinder who is a technician than him.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 24, 2014 9:11:30 GMT -6
I never said I wanted my players to injure anyone. I wanted them to want it. Or as I said SOMETHING LIKE THAT. It's the effort and the mindset that I want. I don't want them to injure them, and I never said that. When I say pain, I'm talking about the opponent getting frustrated, mentally annoyed and maybe even mad because they got beat 'the mean way' by another player either pancaking him or driving him 20 yards. And just one more punch, one more extention and a bit more EFFORT, when it isn't really "neccesary" is what I want. I don't want a evil, I don't want dirty, I don't want penalties and I don't want anyone injured. But neither do I want a nice guy who only blocks his man as far as "neccesary" for the play to be executed. It's about physical and mental dominance. Have you ever seen footballplayers play when they're frustrated, annoyed or angry because they got their a$$ kicked?
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Post by groundchuck on Oct 24, 2014 9:19:02 GMT -6
I think competitive is the right word. A guy that would rather "die than lose".
I think the wt room is a great place to build that.
I also think you have to drill it and expect it.
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