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Post by larrymoe on Mar 27, 2015 10:11:56 GMT -6
We had an occurrence yesterday that seems odd to me, but I didn't know if it was standard practice and I just didn't know it because I haven't had much experience with it.
Had a kid yesterday have a "signing" (let's leave out my opinions on those for now) for a partial scholarship to an Illinois D2 institution. Not really that weird other than the kid wasn't an all conference selection and I wouldn't think a scholarship type kid. What was weird to me was-
1. I never talked to a single person from the school. No phone calls, no emails, never requested to see video.
2. They said they wanted to do a signing Monday and did it yesterday afternoon. I didn't even know the kid was being recruited by them.
Is this normal? I mean, the entire situation just seems really off to me. Or is this how these things generally go?
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Post by spos21ram on Mar 27, 2015 10:26:04 GMT -6
I don't know if I'd say it's common, but it does happen sometimes with D2 and D3 schools. When I was in HS I went to one of those football college fair type things where about 25 college coaches set up a booth and kids interested go and give them their info. The colleges then contact the player or players parents. I remeber some schools calling me asking for game film. I got some from my coach and sent it to them. My HC really wasn't involved much in it. Maybe they did contact him at some point, but not to my knowledge. Some schools do contact our coach, some go straight to the player if they have their contact info.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 27, 2015 10:40:09 GMT -6
I have been a head coach at 2 schools going into my 12th year now.. Yes that is very, very odd. Never had that quite happen. I have had over 20+ Kids in that period sign D2/D-IAA/D-IA and never that situation occur. Yes very odd..
Now D2 is different. I have had coaches not contact me just directly deal with the kid and his parents. That happened on a few occasions. Mostly though I am involved in some capacity. Never had a kid sign without at LEAST going on a visit - let alone film..
Usually all of my D2 guys that sign get their package on their visit in January/February range. They go down for an overnight.. Hang out and the next day before they leave they sit down with the head coach (their family) and breaks down the package for them. SO if the school is 38,000 a year Head Coach will say $15,000.00 Football Money $10,000.00 Academic $2,000 work study $5,000.00 loan
And they may explain you have to come up with the other $6,000.00.. or something like that.
Every D2 kid that I have had sign over the past 10+ years this is how it went down. They came on the visit in January and the head coach broke the "Package Down".. D2's have very, very limited resources so is NEVER a full scholarship.. At least I never had one sign a full Football Scholarship. They usually package them up..
The Division IA/IAA - That is a TOTALLY different animal.. They vet, they pry, it is a process before they sign... They are much more detailed with their process and would NEVER handle it the way you described.
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Post by fantom on Mar 27, 2015 10:57:38 GMT -6
It is an odd situation but I think that it's going to become more common. Between commercial recruiting services and the internet allowing parents to contact schools directly I can see this happening. I didn't say that I think that it's a good idea. If I was a college coach I wouldn't sign a kid without talking to his HS coach. If I was a parent I'd never send my kid to a school that we hadn't visited. I think that this increases the potential for disaster exponentially (See the thread in the Recruiting section about D.3 schools being a scam) but it's a free country.
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Post by coachorm on Mar 27, 2015 11:15:53 GMT -6
I agree with Fantom that this may become more common. Especially with Hudl. Kids now have the ability to go on Hudl and make their own highlight video for coaches to see. A college coach really wouldnt need to even talk to the HC at the high school level unless he just had some questions about the players character.
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Post by fantom on Mar 27, 2015 11:43:45 GMT -6
I agree with Fantom that this may become more common. Especially with Hudl. Kids now have the ability to go on Hudl and make their own highlight video for coaches to see. A college coach really wouldnt need to even talk to the HC at the high school level unless he just had some questions about the players character. Which is a pretty good thing to ask about. It occurs to me that it might be a good idea to talk to the HS coach to verify that the kid in the film is the same kid that you're signing.
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Post by mrjvi on Mar 27, 2015 12:00:10 GMT -6
As of the last 5-8 years at least 1/2 to 3/4 of colleges "recruiting" our kids never contact me. Sometimes the kids really perform horribly at the school (often I don't even know they are going there) and the coach then calls and wonders about him. I tell them I would have told them about him if he had just called. At D2 and higher, though, I would say that is unusual.
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Post by bruinfb on Mar 27, 2015 12:01:07 GMT -6
It happened to me this year as well. First time ever. It was a Junior College and I never spoke to any coach at the school, and they gave $5000 to our player specifically for football. I thought it was really odd too.
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Post by larrymoe on Mar 27, 2015 12:56:55 GMT -6
I'm especially confused because I had a couple kids last year that I sent film of to this school and they could have been awesome for them. Not a sniff.
This kid honestly wouldn't start on our HS team next year. He only did this year because we only 13 upperclassman on the team. I told a team mate of mine from college who coaches at a local D3 that I didn't know if he'd ever be able to start a game for them in 4 years and now he's getting scholly money? Dumbfounded.
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Post by fantom on Mar 27, 2015 13:10:04 GMT -6
I'm especially confused because I had a couple kids last year that I sent film of to this school and they could have been awesome for them. Not a sniff. This kid honestly wouldn't start on our HS team next year. He only did this year because we only 13 upperclassman on the team. I told a team mate of mine from college who coaches at a local D3 that I didn't know if he'd ever be able to start a game for them in 4 years and now he's getting scholly money? Dumbfounded. Some of the small schools are really hard to figure out. At least, now that the video is all online now, they can't lose the tapes, which used to happen all the time.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Mar 27, 2015 13:18:32 GMT -6
Had a player this year that was getting recuited by a few d1's. In the past he didn't make the best choices on social media.I ended up setting up a twitter account for him for recruiting purposes that we both had access to. Having a smart phone I received all the private message notifications I was suprised on how many college coach's where contacting the kid that me and the hc never heard a word from. I'm talking full ride offers at 10pm the night before signing day. Opened my eye under the current ncaa rules it happens more then coach's think.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 27, 2015 13:27:56 GMT -6
Why would coaches consider themselves the gatekeepers of the kid's lives? If college coaches contact you it's because they're vetting the kid, they're trying to get you to work the kid for them, or they're trying to grease future recruits.
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Post by larrymoe on Mar 27, 2015 13:33:38 GMT -6
Why would coaches consider themselves the gatekeepers of the kid's lives? If college coaches contact you it's because they're vetting the kid, they're trying to get you to work the kid for them, or they're trying to grease future recruits. I don't expect to be the gatekeeper of anything, but if you were going to hire someone for a job, wouldn't you ask the people who worked with him everyday how he was at his job or would you just take his word for it?
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 27, 2015 13:40:23 GMT -6
I agree, but there's no obligation to contact the coach, especially in the internet age you don't need to go through the HS just to find the kid's phone number. Kids can direct their own recruitment (for better or worse).
Now, I don't know about blindly offering a kid on first contact, that seems like a weird move to me, but I understand how a kid could get recruited without HS coach involvement.
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Post by fantom on Mar 27, 2015 14:21:31 GMT -6
Why would coaches consider themselves the gatekeepers of the kid's lives? If college coaches contact you it's because they're vetting the kid, they're trying to get you to work the kid for them, or they're trying to grease future recruits. Gatekeeper might be too strong of a word. There are several reasons that come to mind that why we expect to hear from the recruiter: 1. To vouch for the kid's character. If a "bad" kid goes to the school and washes out it reflects on our school. If he washes out that's on him but if it keeps them from recruiting other kids from our place I have a problem with that. 2. To make sure that the situation is right for the kid. We have more experience with this kind of thing that most parents. We might be able to point out that getting ten grand knocked off of a 40k a year bill to go to East Bumphuk State isn't necessarily the chance of a lifetime. Maybe we've had kids go there and didn't like the way that they've been treated. 3. When they contact us it gives us a chance to put them on other kids. A few years ago we had a kid who was being very highly recruited. While we were talking to one recruiter we pointed out a kid who we also felt could play at that level. Besides the guy that they wanted they looked harder at the other kid and took a chance on him. He ended up a three year starter and went to an NFL camp. Might not have happened if the coach hadn't talked to us. 4. Common freakin' courtesy.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 27, 2015 15:34:02 GMT -6
1, 2, and 3 make perfect sense, but 4? They're not recruiting you, they're recruiting some teenager. They're not obligated to pay you any specific courtesy.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 27, 2015 15:37:08 GMT -6
Great post fantom..
Would be shocked that kid stays 4 years at that school.. those shady small little d2 schools that do that stuff just do not have their stuff together.. how does the kid not visit? I mean really.... That is almost comical...
Again the real legit schools that have solid programs would NEVER recruit this way and would never not follow up with a head coach..
I am very dumbfounded by this as well..
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Post by jlenwood on Mar 27, 2015 15:43:11 GMT -6
We had an occurrence yesterday that seems odd to me, but I didn't know if it was standard practice and I just didn't know it because I haven't had much experience with it. Had a kid yesterday have a "signing" (let's leave out my opinions on those for now) for a partial scholarship to an Illinois D2 institution. Not really that weird other than the kid wasn't an all conference selection and I wouldn't think a scholarship type kid. What was weird to me was- 1. I never talked to a single person from the school. No phone calls, no emails, never requested to see video. 2. They said they wanted to do a signing Monday and did it yesterday afternoon. I didn't even know the kid was being recruited by them. Is this normal? I mean, the entire situation just seems really off to me. Or is this how these things generally go? Did you see the paperwork? There have been instances in the past where kids have "signed" with schools only later to be found to have faked/lied about it. Stranger things have happened.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 27, 2015 15:45:18 GMT -6
1, 2, and 3 make perfect sense, but 4? They're not recruiting you, they're recruiting some teenager. They're not obligated to pay you any specific courtesy. Actually as a head coach coach I totally disagree with this statement.. I get you do not think the head coach should HAS to be involved but really high school coaches are the college coaches life line..I get it,, But if you are a legit program and you are building for the future that is honestly by FAR THE BEST WAY TO GO!! The better their relationship is with us..the more we help them.. The schools that reach out to us, that treat us well.. allow us to their spring practices, games,, clinic us... Just treat us well.. We do the same.. It is common sense.. I am living it now.. Got a freshmen on my team from Ghana 6'5" 225 lbs te/de FREAK.. Started power forward and was 2nd team all conference power forward as a freshmen in bball.. 17 shoes, huge hands, long, not an ounce of fat.. He is EXACTLY what every coach in our state wants.. Long athletic DE/TE Athlete type.. ABSOLUTE STUD!!! Well the two schools that I have the best relationship with in the state I gave them the heads up on the kid.. He and I actually went to one of their practices yesterdays... EVERY COACH came up to me and him and introduced themselves.. They always treat me well.. Always.. They are an established staff and do a great job.. So they got the first crack at Nana... HE will probably be offerered this summer or fall... Others will come.. But it is common sense to develop a strong positive relationship with the high school staffs...ESPECIALLY in state.. It is human nature...
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Post by fantom on Mar 27, 2015 16:08:38 GMT -6
1, 2, and 3 make perfect sense, but 4? They're not recruiting you, they're recruiting some teenager. They're not obligated to pay you any specific courtesy. Obligated? No but if you plan to come back it might be a good idea. As it is we'd have to wonder why they operate like this, if they have something to hide.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Mar 27, 2015 16:32:02 GMT -6
I will admit we did get follow up from schools about grades and questions about the kids character from the schools really interested but contact was made up to the point of offers with no contact.Also not just d2 but D1 schools that played in bowl games.
The reality is from what I see unless your a school that has a steady pipeline of players besides character concerns and to fax transcripts hs coach's are sort of obsolete in the process I Don't like it but that's what I'm seeing.
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 27, 2015 17:39:33 GMT -6
Anybody think that some of these college coaches aren't very smart? I've talked to a few that couldn't x and o their way out of a wet paper bag. One had just won a bcs championship. Maybe it transfers over to common sense life stuff which I think is what fantom is speaking about.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 27, 2015 18:24:44 GMT -6
Good point
I am with phantom too.. What do they have to hide? I coached college ball and every serious recruit we had I always contacted the head coach and got his breakdown.. what is this program hiding? Why so weird and secretive in their approach..
Just smells of fishy, shady and gimmicky.. Not a way to sustain a program. I am sorry but I do not see this trend picking up steam..
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Post by mhcoach on Mar 27, 2015 18:44:57 GMT -6
We had a player this season who the day before signing day tells us "Oh I'll be signing tomorrow". It came as a total shock to everyone. He is small, & not very fast, he was a back up for us. He is a great young man & I was thrilled but I know there are several other players who would have gone before him. On signing day I spoke to Daddy, the school, a D1 FCS school, signed him to a partial scholarship because he had the grades, had applied there, & they liked him on their visit. Daddy also told us they called him the night before the player told us he had no idea either. The other factor was the family financials that they saw when he applied.
Evidently, they had several players back out in the days proceeding signing day. Whatever the reason I am glad the young man is given a chance.
It is very rare we get surprised like this. Normally we have a parade of recruiters who visit & we are always aware of exactly who is getting recruited & who needs help.
Joe
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Post by wingtol on Mar 28, 2015 7:18:09 GMT -6
Dealing with our recruiting I have been thinking about this and trying to figure out if it is normal as you asked in the OP. I guess we have always had contact with schools who were after our guys at some point int the process wether it be at a recruiting night, school visit, phone calls, email etc. But we have also had a few, very few but some, just end up playing somewhere with out us being involved at all. Now those were D3 schools and most of those places if you show up and want to play and have the finical stuff figured out they say come on down! Not saying that's the case for D3 in a nut shell we have had lots of kids heavily recruited and given aid thru football but most places will take a player to get those tuitions on campus. Anyways I do find it a bit odd that this late a D 2 is giving a kid football money with out talking to anyone from the HS.
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Post by coachjm on Mar 28, 2015 11:47:42 GMT -6
I have had it happen 3 times and all three scenerios were different.
1. Had a division 1 kicker, Dad acted as an agent for him, I thought he was a high level kicker as well and contacted numerous schools for the family he ended up signing with a division 1 school that I had never contacted, he started as a freshman but didn't make it for four years and had several health issues that occurred.
2. Had a kid not come out for football as a Senior, after playing 5 games in the previous 3 years... They had a big SIGNING for a d3 school where kids obviously don't need to sign he played one year and quit not playing a game.
3. Had a Senior on a 2-7 football team who was a part time starter that "earned" a division 1 AA scholarship there staff never contacted me and I did recommend him to several division 3 schools due to his size. He played one year at the 1 AA school, transferred two more times and then dropped out of school.
All three cases I never talked with college coaches, in two of the three cases I would have helped the kid get an opportunity that they more likely could have succeeded in socially, academically, and athletically. I have done a couple small stints coaching college ball and I can tell you there are many guys out there who don't have respect for HS coaches or their opinions. The good ones do and they generally will call around. I have several friends who will call and ask about all potential recruits in my region even as they know I will give them honest feedback and I'm very proud of the my players I have recommended most have played 4 years and had positive experiences...
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Post by unc31 on Mar 28, 2015 13:01:06 GMT -6
I can say unequivocally that many, many schools do a horrible job recruiting these days. I have coached college football and I know what was expected of us. I do not see those standards today. They seem to not have any passion about recruiting for one thing and they also seem to lack the skill to sell their program.
In fairness, there are still some good recruiters but not very many.
The other thing that I am puzzled by is trying to figure out their evaluation process. I have some D2 guys come in and have no interest whatsoever in really good players who D1's do have an interest in. And it is not as if they feel they don't have a chance on them, they just don't evaluate them highly even though they have the video evidence that they are phenomenal players. Then I will read where they signed some kid we played against who was average at best, not even an All Conference level player.
I just think some of these D2 guys are delusional as to the type of players they can realistically get. They honestly feel that they can get the same size, speed and talent levels as the D1's.
The other thing that they do a poor job with is following up on kids that they are high on. I had a coach recently tell me that he totally forgot about one of our kids that he loved when he came in the spring last year (D2). He accepted a preferred walk on spot with a very good D1. This kid has the potential to be a D2 All Conference type player and they "forgot about him until after it was too late. After apologizing he had the nerve to ask me if the kid would walk on for them because they really want him but gave all of their money. If someone did not show for whatever reason they would give that money to him. Really?
Maybe I just expect too much professionalism. I am pretty quirky about things like that.
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Post by mhcoach on Mar 28, 2015 18:24:29 GMT -6
We had 9 players sign this year. That was including the player mentioned earlier. Last spring was a revolving door for us, everyday we would see 2-8 D1 coaches making the Florida swing. The funny thing was the bigger the school the nicer the coaches were.
The worst guy we had come through was from a small FCS school that went 1-9. He was a total arrogant jerk, insulted several of our players. Our players wouldn't even accept a visit from him. All of our coaches had to bite their tongues when we really wanted to throw the guy out.
The D2 guys had it rough when 4 D1 guys are asking to see the same player they are interested in. Usually we see them in an off time & they are looking at who didn't sign. They also want to see players who fit them academically.
Joe
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Post by larrymoe on Mar 29, 2015 8:35:55 GMT -6
Great post fantom.. Would be shocked that kid stays 4 years at that school.. those shady small little d2 schools that do that stuff just do not have their stuff together.. how does the kid not visit? I mean really.... That is almost comical... Again the real legit schools that have solid programs would NEVER recruit this way and would never not follow up with a head coach.. I am very dumbfounded by this as well.. Judging by the kid's ability to play the game, I'd be surprised if he plays one entire season.
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Post by larrymoe on Mar 29, 2015 8:37:22 GMT -6
Did you see the paperwork? There have been instances in the past where kids have "signed" with schools only later to be found to have faked/lied about it. Stranger things have happened. I didn't inspect the paperwork, but the signed something and there was a coach present from the school I assume. I didn't check out his driver's license.
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