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Post by realdawg on Jul 26, 2015 8:03:39 GMT -6
All summer off without lifting and running is not good in my opinion. Plus what would I do all summer? We cut back on the amount of practice time we put in during the summer to try to prevent burnout and have our kids ready to go Aug 1. I'd be ok with no practice or skill development during the summer IF NOONE else did it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 26, 2015 9:57:47 GMT -6
I mean they won a national 7 on 7!!!!! WOO HOO!! I hate fake football too, point was related to the thread; they only spent a couple practices working on stuff and then proceeded to buzz through a gaggle of pretty good teams that had worked the whole summer on it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 26, 2015 10:00:15 GMT -6
"sack of hades" - is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Sorry local colloquialism, it refers to someone you don't really want to tangle with; tough opponent
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 26, 2015 10:05:28 GMT -6
I do think there even differences in really heavy summer schedules. I think there is a big difference in a 5 day a week summer program that is weights/conditioning Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri and maybe some throwing on Wednesday and what I have read here where some teams actually have FOOTBALL PRACTICE combined with some type of lifting 4 or 5 days a week. Heck I recall reading some of that practice wearing helmets and shoulder pads..maybe even full gear.
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Post by mrjvi on Jul 26, 2015 17:42:33 GMT -6
Our kids basically have June off because we are still in school and with regents testing they usually don't lift as much. For 6 weeks until we start on August 17th we have weights and conditioning from 7:30-9:30 am on Tuesday through Friday. They then have nights for all the other sport stuff. We want them to get 15 workouts in during the 6 weeks. If not they have a 1/2 hour extra conditioning daily for the first 2 weeks of the season. UNLESS they score high enough on the pre-season test. Then they are good also. Seems to work well. Attendance year to year has varied somewhat. Great attendance our 2 previous years with state appearances (1 win 1 not) Not as great attendance this year so probably fighting for a league or sectional championship at best. Attendance off season and during the summer has definitely correlated with winning seasons or average ones.
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Post by airraider on Jul 26, 2015 17:51:43 GMT -6
Personally... I feel like kids these days never get a break... for some that is good (keeps them out of trouble) Last year you were telling us that as a staff you guys decided if a kid didn't attend football workouts during baseball season they weren't going to be allowed to play at your school. What changed? My personal feelings on things do not always coincide with what the current staff (HC) says is the law of the land. And honestly, that we not dealing with days off, that was dealing with kids being in the weight room during the baseball season.
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Post by airraider on Jul 26, 2015 17:53:32 GMT -6
I mean they won a national 7 on 7!!!!! WOO HOO!! Well they have only lost 3 games in the last 3 years... I will WOO HOO to that.
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Post by airraider on Jul 26, 2015 18:00:37 GMT -6
We currently lift/run on Monday and Thursday morning. We do a 7 on 7 league on Tuesday evening where we usually do a little weight room stuff before we leave the school.
Next summer I plan on going Monday and Weds mornings and cutting out the 7 on 7.
I have also been part of a successful program where we opened the weight room twice a day 3 days a week and the kids had to make a certain amount of them before they could dress in a game.
They were even allowed to come to the morning and evening session to get in the number they needed.
So basically you only had to make like 18 for the summer, and you could come only for 2 weeks and make every session and not show up the rest of the summer and be good.
We went 13-0 that year before getting beat in the semis... so I guess it did not hinder us too bad.
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Post by holmesbend on Jul 29, 2015 6:44:17 GMT -6
Team out of Kentucky basically had the whole month of June off. Practiced a couple of times, did a couple of 7-7s, then just won a big national select 7-7. They'll be a sack of hades come this fall. Yes they did and yes they will.
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Post by holmesbend on Jul 29, 2015 7:10:11 GMT -6
D1 schools, players usually get to go home the Month of May after finals until summer school starts that 1st Monday of June. Maybe not a full 4 weeks, but for arguments sake, it's a month. They are on their own, but when they come back...the daily grind returns on campus along with summer school classes.
As another poster stated, at the D2, NAIA and D3 levels, they aren't required to stay on campus. Work out on their own over the summer and be prepared to pass whatever given conditioning test.
I'm in Kentucky, and what bothers me is the fact that I have never and probably never will equate July with football. We were able to start practice July 10th after our state mandated 2 week DEAD period. So, by this Friday....August 1st, we will have completed 3 WEEKS of practice already. Our opening week for the state is August 21/22. By Fall "Break" (this doesn't apply for football, obviously) which usually is the first full week of October for most districts in the state, teams will have already played SEVEN games (so, a full TWO weeks into actual Fall & 3/4 of the regular season is complete).
My whole deal is when we actually start practice and the start of the season. I'd just love to back things up 2-3 weeks at least. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but have you ever noticed how Basketball and Baseball, colleges and the NBA/MLB ALL start practices and their seasons BEFORE most states high school seasons. But in football, it's the exact opposite (at least in our state)...so, if practicing almost all of July and opening the season the 3rd week of August was such a novel idea, then why aren't colleges and the NFL doing it?
It was meant to be a FALL sport, and for a long long time it was....that's what I want back.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 29, 2015 7:49:14 GMT -6
I'll echo DCs sentiments. As with anything what is the expectation? If everybody in the region is working 5 days a week all summer, and if you're not then, you better win doing what you do, and win big.
Our cross town rival: HC been there about 25 years, won a couple of titles, and is in the hunt consistently year after. Before he came, this school was just an average team historically. He made that program what it is today. He was one of the first to use 'the spread', hire a full time SS coach, middle coaches doing similar things, etc... And is one of the largest schools in the state. They became one of those teams you had to beat if wanted to go somewhere.
There has been a bit rumbling in the community that he hasn't been quite good enough, he hasn't won as much as he should, he doesn't work quite hard enough. Why? A little propaganda.
At at my previous stop which also close by, our SS coach was a master at motivation. One of his things was on Fridays during the summer at weight lifting,all day long it was "This is why you're going to beat Team Above HS, because you work harder than they do. They don't even work out on Fridays. They take every Friday off. Their not as dedicated as you are." Well we lifted 3 days a week, MWF. They lifted 3 days a week, MWTh. So technically the Friday thing was true. But how does that play into the community?
Johnny goes home and tells everyone at the dinner table, "Hey, we're going to beat Team Above HS this year because they take Friday's off". Then dad brags to another father at church about beating them because "we work harder than y'all". Mom gossips at the Y during tread mill time about the same. Big sister gets hit at the mall by a football player from Team Above HS, and she pops off at him with "I don't think so, I'd rather hook up with someone from my school. Yall don't do what it takes."
You get enough kids believing the idea and enough people passing that a long, pretty soon the community thinks that it must be true. Is it stupid for the community to buy such a thing? Yes. But you don't have to pass an entrance exam to get into the booster club.
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Post by fantom on Jul 29, 2015 9:02:40 GMT -6
I'll echo DCs sentiments. As with anything what is the expectation? If everybody in the region is working 5 days a week all summer, and if you're not then, you better win doing what you do, and win big. Our cross town rival: HC been there about 25 years, won a couple of titles, and is in the hunt consistently year after. Before he came, this school was just an average team historically. He made that program what it is today. He was one of the first to use 'the spread', hire a full time SS coach, middle coaches doing similar things, etc... And is one of the largest schools in the state. They became one of those teams you had to beat if wanted to go somewhere. There has been a bit rumbling in the community that he hasn't been quite good enough, he hasn't won as much as he should, he doesn't work quite hard enough. Why? A little propaganda. At at my previous stop which also close by, our SS coach was a master at motivation. One of his things was on Fridays during the summer at weight lifting,all day long it was "This is why you're going to beat Team Above HS, because you work harder than they do. They don't even work out on Fridays. They take every Friday off. Their not as dedicated as you are." Well we lifted 3 days a week, MWF. They lifted 3 days a week, MWTh. So technically the Friday thing was true. But how does that play into the community? Johnny goes home and tells everyone at the dinner table, "Hey, we're going to beat Team Above HS this year because they take Friday's off". Then dad brags to another father at church about beating them because "we work harder than y'all". Mom gossips at the Y during tread mill time about the same. Big sister gets hit at the mall by a football player from Team Above HS, and she pops off at him with "I don't think so, I'd rather hook up with someone from my school. Yall don't do what it takes." You get enough kids believing the idea and enough people passing that a long, pretty soon the community thinks that it must be true. Is it stupid for the community to buy such a thing? Yes. But you don't have to pass an entrance exam to get into the booster club. Unless you don't beat them.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 29, 2015 9:40:11 GMT -6
I'll echo DCs sentiments. As with anything what is the expectation? If everybody in the region is working 5 days a week all summer, and if you're not then, you better win doing what you do, and win big. Our cross town rival: HC been there about 25 years, won a couple of titles, and is in the hunt consistently year after. Before he came, this school was just an average team historically. He made that program what it is today. He was one of the first to use 'the spread', hire a full time SS coach, middle coaches doing similar things, etc... And is one of the largest schools in the state. They became one of those teams you had to beat if wanted to go somewhere. There has been a bit rumbling in the community that he hasn't been quite good enough, he hasn't won as much as he should, he doesn't work quite hard enough. Why? A little propaganda. At at my previous stop which also close by, our SS coach was a master at motivation. One of his things was on Fridays during the summer at weight lifting,all day long it was "This is why you're going to beat Team Above HS, because you work harder than they do. They don't even work out on Fridays. They take every Friday off. Their not as dedicated as you are." Well we lifted 3 days a week, MWF. They lifted 3 days a week, MWTh. So technically the Friday thing was true. But how does that play into the community? Johnny goes home and tells everyone at the dinner table, "Hey, we're going to beat Team Above HS this year because they take Friday's off". Then dad brags to another father at church about beating them because "we work harder than y'all". Mom gossips at the Y during tread mill time about the same. Big sister gets hit at the mall by a football player from Team Above HS, and she pops off at him with "I don't think so, I'd rather hook up with someone from my school. Yall don't do what it takes." You get enough kids believing the idea and enough people passing that a long, pretty soon the community thinks that it must be true. Is it stupid for the community to buy such a thing? Yes. But you don't have to pass an entrance exam to get into the booster club. Unless you don't beat them. No fantom --its unless NOBODY else beats them. Because anyone who beats them..or anytime the team underperforms, coachwoodall is exactly right. That is what the grumblings will be. It is the same as when you don't win/don't play and you run the wing-T, split back veer, double wing, etc etc.
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Post by fantom on Jul 29, 2015 9:49:59 GMT -6
Unless you don't beat them. No fantom --its unless NOBODY else beats them. Because anyone who beats them..or anytime the team underperforms, coachwoodall is exactly right. That is what the grumblings will be. It is the same as when you don't win/don't play and you run the wing-T, split back veer, double wing, etc etc. The way that I look at it is that if you don't meet the community's expectations it doesn't matter how many hours you work or what offense you run. You're still going to get the ax so you might as well do it your way.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 29, 2015 9:54:06 GMT -6
I'll echo DCs sentiments. As with anything what is the expectation? If everybody in the region is working 5 days a week all summer, and if you're not then, you better win doing what you do, and win big. Our cross town rival: HC been there about 25 years, won a couple of titles, and is in the hunt consistently year after. Before he came, this school was just an average team historically. He made that program what it is today. He was one of the first to use 'the spread', hire a full time SS coach, middle coaches doing similar things, etc... And is one of the largest schools in the state. They became one of those teams you had to beat if wanted to go somewhere. There has been a bit rumbling in the community that he hasn't been quite good enough, he hasn't won as much as he should, he doesn't work quite hard enough. Why? A little propaganda. At at my previous stop which also close by, our SS coach was a master at motivation. One of his things was on Fridays during the summer at weight lifting,all day long it was "This is why you're going to beat Team Above HS, because you work harder than they do. They don't even work out on Fridays. They take every Friday off. Their not as dedicated as you are." Well we lifted 3 days a week, MWF. They lifted 3 days a week, MWTh. So technically the Friday thing was true. But how does that play into the community? Johnny goes home and tells everyone at the dinner table, "Hey, we're going to beat Team Above HS this year because they take Friday's off". Then dad brags to another father at church about beating them because "we work harder than y'all". Mom gossips at the Y during tread mill time about the same. Big sister gets hit at the mall by a football player from Team Above HS, and she pops off at him with "I don't think so, I'd rather hook up with someone from my school. Yall don't do what it takes." You get enough kids believing the idea and enough people passing that a long, pretty soon the community thinks that it must be true. Is it stupid for the community to buy such a thing? Yes. But you don't have to pass an entrance exam to get into the booster club. Unless you don't beat them. We were back and forth, won a few more of the big ones than they did. Regardless he MADE that program. 40+ years of .500 ball and now they are an annual top 10 program. It's not the "he doesn't win enough big ones" talk; it's the "he doesn't win enough of the big because he doesn't do A,B,&C like THEM"
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 29, 2015 10:12:56 GMT -6
No fantom --its unless NOBODY else beats them. Because anyone who beats them..or anytime the team underperforms, coachwoodall is exactly right. That is what the grumblings will be. It is the same as when you don't win/don't play and you run the wing-T, split back veer, double wing, etc etc. The way that I look at it is that if you don't meet the community's expectations it doesn't matter how many hours you work or what offense you run. You're still going to get the ax so you might as well do it your way. I agree with that. My comment wasn't suggesting that you SHOULD do things just because others do. I was simply saying that just because crosstown rival was the one saying they were going to win because they work out on Fridays doesn't mean crosstown rival has to be the one to challenge/beat them for such propaganda to create buzz. Just sit on the Curtis side when John Curtis is playing poorly or (gasp) losing. "We can't just run the veer..it is too old fashion (as if offense is like microchip technology). We need to spread it out...., The game has passed JT by... " Yep..those 19 consecutive state final appearances, 4 out of the last 5 state titles, and 26 titles in like 45 years really don't mean much.
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Post by fantom on Jul 29, 2015 10:25:10 GMT -6
The way that I look at it is that if you don't meet the community's expectations it doesn't matter how many hours you work or what offense you run. You're still going to get the ax so you might as well do it your way. I agree with that. My comment wasn't suggesting that you SHOULD do things just because others do. I was simply saying that just because crosstown rival was the one saying they were going to win because they work out on Fridays doesn't mean crosstown rival has to be the one to challenge/beat them for such propaganda to create buzz. Just sit on the Curtis side when John Curtis is playing poorly or (gasp) losing. "We can't just run the veer..it is too old fashion (as if offense is like microchip technology). We need to spread it out...., The game has passed JT by... " Yep..those 19 consecutive state final appearances, 4 out of the last 5 state titles, and 26 titles in like 45 years really don't mean much. I can pinpoint the exact time when I stopped caring about what fans say. It was when we were coming off of the field at halftime with a 40-0 lead and heard fans yelling for us to throw the ball more. I'll concede that, as an assistant and a retired teacher whose livelihood does not depend on coaching, I can afford to not care.
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Post by coachmonkey on Jul 30, 2015 8:02:44 GMT -6
You have to make kids take time off. They don't realize that it's when they rest that their bodies are actually getting bigger, faster and stronger. Your body needs rest. If you are not building rest into your training schedule and selling your athletes on rest, you are doing them and you a huge disservice. You also need to have your finger on the schedules of your athletes. If they are playing basketball all weekend, or whatever, and then you put them through a grueling speed/strength training session on Monday, you are minimizing your results. Work smarter, not harder.
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 31, 2015 9:40:03 GMT -6
You have to make kids take time off. They don't realize that it's when they rest that their bodies are actually getting bigger, faster and stronger. Your body needs rest. If you are not building rest into your training schedule and selling your athletes on rest, you are doing them and you a huge disservice. You also need to have your finger on the schedules of your athletes. If they are playing basketball all weekend, or whatever, and then you put them through a grueling speed/strength training session on Monday, you are minimizing your results. Work smarter, not harder. I've had a few kids like this and loved every one of them, however, more times than not it's the PARENTS that have to be told enough is enough. I've heard more "Successful Team A is doing this, this, and this so we should be doing it too," than anything else. Had a dad screaming at me because we only lifted once a DAY. REALLY!?!? Also, a local, successful basketball coach (the past few years made post season runs, but lost every year in the sub-state championship) was fired because parents wanted him to have multiple summer workouts a week and he refused. Their current coach has workouts every day and I hear kids are hating it.
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Post by unc31 on Aug 2, 2015 6:36:33 GMT -6
The only problem with giving them time off to rest is that they will not be resting. They will going to basketball practice, playing AAU basketball, or playing summer baseball.
I just lost my starting center for the season because he blew his knee out on a collision at the plate while catching in a summer baseball league. We have two mandated dead weeks in NC. He filled his dead period with baseball. I can't say much, I would probably do the same thing.
As a bonus, I lost my backup QB as a passer. Arm problems from pitching too much baseball this summer. They thought he was going to have to undergo TJ surgery. Luckily not, but still can't throw.
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 2, 2015 7:42:15 GMT -6
well maybe he can catch a ball for you
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Post by unc31 on Aug 3, 2015 20:21:26 GMT -6
yep, now a receiver....although he can still hand off in a pinch.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 4, 2015 9:50:34 GMT -6
I, personally, would like to see more state monitoring in the summer. I don't like the idea of a full month without contact or facilities as that would be detrimental to strength and SAQ gains from the off-season.
I have been on both sides of the fence here; in a program where playing football was a year round commitment and in another where it wasn't. The schools played each other while I was coaching at each and we went back and forth with wins. Both programs will go down in history as powerhouses but the one that demanded year-round commitment won more state titles.
There are conferences/leagues where I think you have to push the kids year-round in order to compete. There is actually an 8-man conference in this state that that very way. There are eight teams in the conference and one of the top four is always playing for the state title. I've seen their off-season schedules and it's insane in the summer. One has five days of weight training, one at-home camp, and four camps out of town (two are out of state). There's no such thing as traveling AAU basketball or baseball for these kids. They play football, basketball and run track during the year (with lifting and football sprinkled in) but football season basically starts for them the day school gets out.
Coaches have to be careful when they establish a year round football program because it can back back-fire. One of the greatest turnarounds in football in this state was also one of the shortest and it was due to burn out. The coaching staff had three years of solid, year-round work from their kids and they went from a consistent 1-9/0-10 team to competing in the semifinals in that space of time. BUT, the kids and the community grew weary of it, numbers dropped and the program is right back in the bottom tier.
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Post by holmesbend on Aug 4, 2015 13:08:31 GMT -6
...I think there is always a lot to be said for hard work, I also think there is just as much to be said for having those that can't and those that can & for you/your teams sake each year; hope that you have more of the later than your opponents. Because that (plus scheduling) is what ultimatly dictates things in the end.
I personally don't know more states don't look at modeling their rules after colleges and the NFL as far as what goes on during June and July, and start dates for practice/games.
All D1 schools have their players all summer for workouts, but they are also paying them a small stipend and paying for their summer school classes.
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Post by holmesbend on Aug 4, 2015 13:09:22 GMT -6
*ultimately
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 4, 2015 19:17:00 GMT -6
I'm not meaning to be esoteric in terms of the general discussion, but this just might be a chicken/egg topic.
In my later years, I've gotten to be more 'let the kids be kids and just play' in terms of the summer commitment. Yeah, I'm a bit jaded since I've got a wee tot at home even though I'm 9 years from when I COULD take retirement (COULD being that I've still got to get the wee tot through college). Plus I've 'been there, done that' in the chasing of the prize. I look back and say that when I was a kid, while I wanted to commit and work hard; I liked to do some stuff on my own time in the summer. So I can appreciate the idea of giving kids some space in the summer.
On on the flip side, I'm a workaholic. I get it honest from my dad. I don't take a lot of time off. I find myself up at the school in the weight room even if I don't have duty. I go up to the school and watch/help the middle school. I've always worried about the players in the summer time b/c I can't eye them 8-10hours a day like during the school year. Kids always need guidance, and how can I guide them if I don't see them? I need one more rep, let's do it one more time, we need another look; I'm that guy.
As I've pointed out before, from a CYA/job protection stand point; if THEY are doing it, then you better either do it or have better results than THEY do. We've always supported the other sports teams and tried to make the summer schedule fit within the whole athletic department; that makes friendly allies. But, push come to shove we're going to get our work in no matter what.
Do I eat that up? Hades yes.
Do I the Dad pony up? Ummmm, meh.....
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