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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 2, 2015 20:26:03 GMT -6
I didn't want to hijack another thread, but during that discussion the concept of leadership and the QB position came up :
I have always thought the #1 trait a QB MUST have is leadership.
Everything else is negotiable.....arm strength, foot speed, height, size....all of that can be adapted to, but without leadership, I do not care, it won't work.
Why? Other than just football history and convention, is there any reason that the QB position need be a leadership position at the HS level. At the NFL level, or if your offense at a lower level operates with enough sophistication that the the qualities necessary to be successful generally would equate to being a leader. But for other systems used at the HS level couldn't that leadership flow from another position and the QB just be responsible for correctly executing his responsibility.
So I feel like we will end up arguing about semantics.
And I am anti-semantics, which doesn't mean I deny the Holocaust.
Hopefully folks get that joke......and now to my point:
The idea of "correctly executing his responsibility" is something we want everyone to do. It is the assignment and technique and responsibilities that each player has on each play.
My definition of leadership would be something along the lines of "correctly executing his responsibility when the chit hits the fan".
True leadership is the ability to refocus, to fight back, and to not let the last play linger and ruin the next one, in my opinion.
I think about Ohio State versus Oregon in the CFP this past season. Several times Oregon would have an explosive play, just rip off 20-30 yards and then be right back on the ball ready to push the tempo and go.
Ohio State did such a good job of treating each play as a competition to be won, not worried about the previous outcome, or the pending touchdown assault. They were so successful that night stopping drives after big plays.
4 Ohio State turnovers + 465 yards of total offense from Oregon should equal a Duck victory.
Nothing was really said (there was no time), but you could see the leadership that defense must've had, because they refused to let one bad play end up rick rolling them into giving up a touchdown (which is what you see a lot with Oregon, Baylor, etc.).
So, that is how a define leadership......not the Ray Lewis pregame soliloquy, or the Drew Brees cheerleader chant.........no, it is not necessarily vocal, but it is the ability to keep "doing your job" in the face of adversity.
Not every player has this (I would argue most do not). Your leaders are the ones who do, and can refocus their teammates to do that same. Heck, I think knowing those players is job number 1 for a coach. Job number 2 is making sure they know they have to be the rally point when things go bad.
Now....
The quarterback (the modern position, not the single wing version) is a distributor of the football. Whatever the offense, his job is to get the football where it needs to be, when it needs to be there, and into whomever's hands it needs to be.......
The other ten players can perfectly execute their assignments, but without proper distribution, you probably do not have a play.
When things go bad, your quarterback must be able to still focus and distribute the football.
By virtue of having this trait, which I deem ESSENTIAL, he ends up leading others to do that same.
Could your RG provide that leadership? of course Could your WR provide that leadership? sure
But I think you MUST have your quarterback be a self-starter in this trait. It will be too late if he has to see others leading in this respect and then tries to follow them.
He is the only player, by virtue of his role as distributor, who can set the tone for the other 11.....
That is why I have come to believe he must be a leader.
So, what does leadership look like on a HS level. dubber I wouldn't agree here with your definition of leadership as simply doing your job in the face of adversity. I would say that leadership HAS to have something to do with getting others to follow you. In your definition, the walls could be crumbling, and if the QB is still taking the snap, seating the ball, opening the right direction, handing the ball off and carrying out his fake he is being a leader correct? I just don't see that as being the same. Player A might run through every sprint at practice. Might show up at every offseason workout, work his tale off, heck, even be one of the best if not THE best/strongest/fastest etc. However, if for whatever reason Player B GETS OTHERS to do better, then he is the leader. Player A might be keeping his wits about him and distributing the ball, but if player B is your guard, and he is getting OTHERS to keep their wits about them in a stressful situation..HE is the leader.
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Post by newhope on Aug 3, 2015 7:06:49 GMT -6
At a new school, trying to find the real leaders. One of the assistants saw this: we called the team over at the end of a 7 on 7. One player leaves his helmet. A senior grabs it, runs over to him as we gather, shoves it to him and tells him "don't ever leave this again". I never saw it. Found one leader right there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 7:31:17 GMT -6
Work & ultimately production.
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Post by dubber on Aug 3, 2015 11:09:56 GMT -6
All I have to work off is my experience, and the common traits I find in the kids whom I identified as the leaders of the team are those whose play and focus inspires their other teammates.
Some are vocal, some never say a word, but it is their play (and corresponding attitude) that propels their teammates. In the face of adversity, who do I need to get the ball to? Which lineman do I need to run behind?
Those that deliver in adversity are the true leaders in my opinion, and I think you're quarterback, if you are to be good, MUST have that quality.
In 2012 we had a very awesome offense. Spread, no huddle, pass first. We had athletes to burn. All 5 of our skill guys were touchdown makers any time they got the football.
Our quarterback that season set the school record for TD passes at 30. He was a big kid, strong arm, etc.
He also folded under pressure.
We lost 3 games that season, including the sectional championship.
1st loss= both teams undefeated, he throws 4 picks and misses a couple of touchdowns.
2nd loss= tied at halftime. They score to start the 3rd, he goes on to miss WR's and throw picks
3rd loss= sectional championship. Tied at half, they open the 3rd with a score, and he proceeds to commit 3 straight turnovers.
We had talent to burn, but our quarterback's inability to perform through adversity limited our ceiling.
Last couple of years our skill player talent has been lower, but we have quarterbacks who battle adversity. I've been apart of several comebacks during that time, and I can only point to our quarterback leading us in those situations.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 3, 2015 11:25:17 GMT -6
All I have to work off is my experience, and the common traits I find in the kids whom I identified as the leaders of the team are those whose play and focus inspires their other teammates. Some are vocal, some never say a word, but it is their play (and corresponding attitude) that propels their teammates. In the face of adversity, who do I need to get the ball to? Which lineman do I need to run behind? Those that deliver in adversity are the true leaders in my opinion, and I think you're quarterback, if you are to be good, MUST have that quality.In 2012 we had a very awesome offense. Spread, no huddle, pass first. We had athletes to burn. All 5 of our skill guys were touchdown makers any time they got the football.Our quarterback that season set the school record for TD passes at 30. He was a big kid, strong arm, etc. He also folded under pressure. We lost 3 games that season, including the sectional championship. 1st loss= both teams undefeated, he throws 4 picks and misses a couple of touchdowns. 2nd loss= tied at halftime. They score to start the 3rd, he goes on to miss WR's and throw picks 3rd loss= sectional championship. Tied at half, they open the 3rd with a score, and he proceeds to commit 3 straight turnovers. We had talent to burn, but our quarterback's inability to perform through adversity limited our ceiling. Last couple of years our skill player talent has been lower, but we have quarterbacks who battle adversity. I've been apart of several comebacks during that time, and I can only point to our quarterback leading us in those situations. I think your perception is formed by the portions of your post that I have highlighted. In the situation you have described (and created) the QB position has the burden of execution placed on his shoulders. Would you consider Terrell Owens a leader? By all accounts he consistently gave 100% on the field and practice, was a fierce competitor, and stepped up to the challenge. He played 62 of 72 snaps and caught 9 passes for 122 yards in the Superbowl just 7 weeks after breaking his leg and tearing a ligament in his ankle. That is definitely delivering in adversity.
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Post by dubber on Aug 3, 2015 11:40:31 GMT -6
yes
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 3, 2015 12:09:42 GMT -6
Terrell Owens...who tore apart not one, not two, but THREE different teams, is a leader?
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Post by fantom on Aug 3, 2015 12:35:14 GMT -6
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Post by 42falcon on Aug 3, 2015 12:50:09 GMT -6
Terrell Owens...who tore apart not one, not two, but THREE different teams, is a leader? Not trying to have a "fan " discussion but yes the guy was a leader on the field with his play. He tore apart 3 teams bc the leadership in those teams / structure provided to the athletes was poor. You look at the Pats the structure / leadership provided is essential to their success & generating buy in. Look at what Chip Kelly is trying to do in Phili great players that can't lead by example are removed. Leadership comes in different forms. Guys like TO who were on field production leaders but cancerous in the dressing room needed more structure / leadership from those around him ie: coaches & management. It's rare to see that in pro sports bc guys are expected to be pro's and unless they r game breakers u cut their a$$ and draft a replacement., Our situation as HS coaches requires us to recognize leadership in all it's forms
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Post by dubber on Aug 3, 2015 12:52:14 GMT -6
Terrell Owens...who tore apart not one, not two, but THREE different teams, is a leader? Tore them apart? I in no way mean this to sound condescending, but I do not believe 3/4's of what comes out of ESPN. Ego, selfish, etc.......yes Someone I like.........no But when things went wrong, he still fought to win, and yes, as weird as it sounds, I believe he led. You cite the Super Bowl as an example of this. What about the 1997 season when the World (Jerry Rice) went down in San Fran early in the season. He steps in as the #1 and they win 13 games. And then, in the playoff game against Dallas, after having several drops early in the game, drops that would have taken a very talented player without this leadership trait and made him ineffective due to self-defeating thoughts, he does this: In San Fran they call it the Catch II When Garcia takes over at Q, they have some bad seasons, and yes, he was a media lightening rod during that time. He also has part of the group that turned it around in 2001 and 2002. The 02' season included overcoming a 24 point deficit in the playoffs versus the Giants. Again, I believe his play in these moments led others. I can hardly say he tore teams apart......there was so much success at each stop. Again, I am NOT a fan. I personally like the Andrew Luck, reluctant super star approach. But I cannot ignore the pattern I observe of him making big plays in big moments and SEEMINGLY raising the play of others around him. But I doubt I will convince you, or anyone, of that.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 3, 2015 13:18:06 GMT -6
Terrell Owens...who tore apart not one, not two, but THREE different teams, is a leader? Tore them apart? I in no way mean this to sound condescending, but I do not believe 3/4's of what comes out of ESPN. Ego, selfish, etc.......yes Someone I like.........no But when things went wrong, he still fought to win, and yes, as weird as it sounds, I believe he led. You cite the Super Bowl as an example of this. What about the 1997 season when the World (Jerry Rice) went down in San Fran early in the season. He steps in as the #1 and they win 13 games. And then, in the playoff game against Dallas, after having several drops early in the game, drops that would have taken a very talented player without this leadership trait and made him ineffective due to self-defeating thoughts, he does this: In San Fran they call it the Catch II When Garcia takes over at Q, they have some bad seasons, and yes, he was a media lightening rod during that time. He also has part of the group that turned it around in 2001 and 2002. The 02' season included overcoming a 24 point deficit in the playoffs versus the Giants. Again, I believe his play in these moments led others. I can hardly say he tore teams apart......there was so much success at each stop. Again, I am NOT a fan. I personally like the Andrew Luck, reluctant super star approach. But I cannot ignore the pattern I observe of him making big plays in big moments and SEEMINGLY raising the play of others around him. But I doubt I will convince you, or anyone, of that. It will be hard to convince simply because we are not in agreement as to what a leader is. He never made a lockerroom stronger. According to others (since we weren't in those locker rooms/ team settings) he didn't make other players BETTER. Now his play was excellent. His work ethic was awesome, but I have never seen anyone show that it inspired OTHERS. Remember, it was always about T.O. Throw ME the BALL. If you didn't do that, he would tear up the team.
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Post by fantom on Aug 3, 2015 13:18:22 GMT -6
Terrell Owens...who tore apart not one, not two, but THREE different teams, is a leader? Tore them apart? I in no way mean this to sound condescending, but I do not believe 3/4's of what comes out of ESPN. Ego, selfish, etc.......yes Someone I like.........no But when things went wrong, he still fought to win, and yes, as weird as it sounds, I believe he led. You cite the Super Bowl as an example of this. What about the 1997 season when the World (Jerry Rice) went down in San Fran early in the season. He steps in as the #1 and they win 13 games. And then, in the playoff game against Dallas, after having several drops early in the game, drops that would have taken a very talented player without this leadership trait and made him ineffective due to self-defeating thoughts, he does this: In San Fran they call it the Catch II When Garcia takes over at Q, they have some bad seasons, and yes, he was a media lightening rod during that time. He also has part of the group that turned it around in 2001 and 2002. The 02' season included overcoming a 24 point deficit in the playoffs versus the Giants. Again, I believe his play in these moments led others. I can hardly say he tore teams apart......there was so much success at each stop. Again, I am NOT a fan. I personally like the Andrew Luck, reluctant super star approach. But I cannot ignore the pattern I observe of him making big plays in big moments and SEEMINGLY raising the play of others around him. But I doubt I will convince you, or anyone, of that. Although none of us knows, what percentage of players on his team do you guess considered TO a team leader?
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 3, 2015 13:39:09 GMT -6
dubber You use the phrase "leadership trait" which I think is key. I agree that if someone routinely fails when the light shines brightest, that person will have a hard time being a leader. But just because someone DOES do those things, doesn't necessarily make them a leader.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 3, 2015 14:29:49 GMT -6
Dubber,
You are just redifining the word leader to fit what you want it to mean.
You are describing a competitor, not a leader.
The best leaders are of course great competitors also.
I have had two great leader QB's before that are great examples. One sucked, but he was without a doubt a great leader and competitor. He just was a LB trying to play QB. All we had. Bet you can guess what kind of season we had.
Had another one that was a great athlete, leader, competitor, you name it. But his last game he ever played he threw FIVE picks. He just didn't produce that day. Two of the picks were my fault. The other was last play of half. Didn't matter. Another one was last play of game, didn't matter. He still threw one more. No matter, it was five picks! He plays well, we win and are in semifinals. But he was an unbelievable kid, leader, competitor whatever. Kid also threw an 8 inning two hitter to win a state championship game. He had the IT factor. Just not that one 5 pick game.
Already told you about the QB on state championship team. Trying to go back over my 19 years, maybe the worst leader I have had at QB. I don't want to over sell this, this kid was fine. But not a leader in any sense of the word. But he dang sure was a competitor and producer and could sling it. That team didn't need to be led. Theybwere self motivated. As a matter of fact, the team made the QB better. He followed them. I have had 6 qb's I would take over him. But guess what, he is the one with the ring.
If you want to define leader as the one who gets it done, then ok, the QB needs to be a leader.
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Post by coach2013 on Aug 3, 2015 14:42:44 GMT -6
Leadership at the high school level is this simple: work ethic with a positive attitude and enough verbal authority to get others to do the same.
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Post by dubber on Aug 3, 2015 19:19:27 GMT -6
I expect to take some shots on this one.
The only thing that's bothered me is the "redefining leader to mean what I want it to be". I do not have a dog in this fight. I have spent a lot of time thinking about leadership, and here's what I got:
When things are going great, you don't need leadership. It is when adversity rears it's head that you need it.
It is not really through language and verbosity that you effect change in that situation.
To win you have to believe you can win, and when things go wrong, some/most lose that belief.
Your leaders are the ones who can restore that.....those who rise above the situation, and inspire others to do the same.
Quarterbacks, imo, need this trait.
And yes, I'll maintain Owens had this trait.
For those who have read Good to Great, two types of leaders were discussed.
One was a selfless, servant leader type.
The other was an ego driven, selfish type.
The book argues that the former is more successful......it does not deny the latter is effective.
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Post by 42falcon on Aug 3, 2015 20:04:14 GMT -6
You can't be a leader if you sux... Seriously you can work hard but it's tough to be instrumental as a 3rd string guy. We have a REC works his ass off. Great kid does everything right leads by example the model player. But man does he sux, it's sad that he's so bad at football. Strong as an Ox, smart, slower than the second coming, looks like Tarzan plays like Jane (actually Jane would kick this dudes ass) and just an all around nice kid. But he sux. No one follows him. We push him as a leader but kids don't see it. If he started and produced a little he'd be a leader yes.
Bottom line production is an element of leadership for me.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 4, 2015 12:10:38 GMT -6
Being a leader is super easy to define. Do people follow him? Quite honestly, it doesn't matter how anyone defines it or what they expect out of a leader, or whatever great stories we have. Do people follow him? If the answer is yes, the he is a leader. If not, then no.
The player that is a great kid and does everything right and is selfless, might be leader, might not be one. He obviously is how we want others to be. The question is he just a good example for others to follow or DO others follow him? I have no idea because I just made that kid up. I have had kids like him that others do follow. That kid is a leader. I have had kids like him that no one follows. They all liked him and respected him, but no one followed him.
I have good leaders and bad leaders. I have leaders that didn't practice worth a crap but showed up at game time. I have leaders that practiced great but fell through during some tough games. I have had leaders that would chew your butt and some that weren't that vocal. I could go on and on here.
Do people follow him? Yes, leader.
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Post by dubber on Aug 4, 2015 12:40:50 GMT -6
Being a leader is super easy to define. Do people follow him? Quite honestly, it doesn't matter how anyone defines it or what they expect out of a leader, or whatever great stories we have. Do people follow him? If the answer is yes, the he is a leader. If not, then no. The player that is a great kid and does everything right and is selfless, might be leader, might not be one. He obviously is how we want others to be. The question is he just a good example for others to follow or DO others follow him? I have no idea because I just made that kid up. I have had kids like him that others do follow. That kid is a leader. I have had kids like him that no one follows. They all liked him and respected him, but no one followed him. I have good leaders and bad leaders. I have leaders that didn't practice worth a crap but showed up at game time. I have leaders that practiced great but fell through during some tough games. I have had leaders that would chew your butt and some that weren't that vocal. I could go on and on here. Do people follow him? Yes, leader. My question is "why do they follow him?"
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