Subbing players in blowout games

[syk]

When you are on the winning side of things and there is nothing left to prove (I'm talking 40-50+ lead by halftime)...

When do decide to go to nothing but 2's and 3's?

How do you deal with seniors that feel that are 'entitled' to play more in these types of games because they've earned it?

[blb]

I have posted this before so those that have already read it, pardon the redundancy.

My philosophy was "Play the 'game deciders' until the game is decided."

To me the game was decided on running clock or when one team was ahead by three or more scores in the 4th Quarter.

[dytmook]

Main guys get the first half, but I wouldn't go crazy with it either. After that. Young guys.

[CoachMikeJudy]

Sept 1, 2015 8:59:19 GMT -6 blb said:

I have posted this before so those that have already read it, pardon the redundancy.

My philosophy was "Play the 'game deciders' until the game is decided."

To me the game was decided on running clock or when one team was ahead by three or more scores in the 4th Quarter.

This is great. Thanks for sharing.

[hunhdisciple]

You start putting in pieces once the clock is running. Every drive, 2 or 3 more come out, until they are all in.

[John Knight]

you tell those seniors that feel entitled that their job is to play well until the game is decided, if they get you to a state final then they can have their glory and stay in until the final gun! IMHO state finals is "No Quarter"!

[joelee]

Do you have seniors who don't start or play who want to go in? We had this situation before. We get them in first before jv guys because they can't ever play in a game unless it is a blowout.

[syk]

Sept 1, 2015 10:59:07 GMT -6 joelee said:

Do you have seniors who don't start or play who want to go in? We had this situation before. We get them in first before jv guys because they can't ever play in a game unless it is a blowout.

Yes, we sub throughout the 1st-2nd quarter to establish depth, and then we sub in SR's and Jr's 3rd team guys before I go to Fresh/SOph guys. It's the #1's that feel like they're getting cheated out of playing time because our first couple opponents aren't very good and its like 50-0 at halftime. 

[joelee]

Oh, yeah the #1's can put on the big girl panties and deal with it.

[shocktroop34]

I never made wholesale changes, especially on defense. I almost always rotated some starters (or veteran 2's) along with some subs. I didn't want the subs to feel like they were on an island by themselves. A veteran player gives them some security and can help them when needed.

I was always careful about doing the same thing with my o-line. I didn't want the backup QB to get murdered because a reserve lineman didn't know his assignment (this could happen on any given play, understood).

If it was possible, I always tried to sub without the team on the field looking like subs.

[syk]

Sept 1, 2015 11:17:52 GMT -6 shocktroop34 said:

I never made wholesale changes, especially on defense. I almost always rotated some starters (or veteran 2's) along with some subs. I didn't want the subs to feel like they were on an island by themselves. A veteran players gives them some security and can help them when needed.

I was always careful about doing the same thing with my o-line. I didn't want the backup QB to get murdered because a reserve lineman didn't know his assignment (this could happen on any given play, understood).

If it was possible, I always tried to sub without the team on the field looking like subs.

We do the same, with the exception of putting in JV when the game is completely out of hand. We rotate starters in small groups, by position. (new LG & RT and RB for a series), making sure that #2's get reps w/ #1's. That's not the issue. The issue is "we feel like we've worked hard enough to say in a game into the late 3rd/early 4th quarter because we've earned the right to continue playing"

[shocktroop34]

Sept 1, 2015 12:27:47 GMT -6 syk said:

Sept 1, 2015 11:17:52 GMT -6 shocktroop34 said:

I never made wholesale changes, especially on defense. I almost always rotated some starters (or veteran 2's) along with some subs. I didn't want the subs to feel like they were on an island by themselves. A veteran players gives them some security and can help them when needed.

I was always careful about doing the same thing with my o-line. I didn't want the backup QB to get murdered because a reserve lineman didn't know his assignment (this could happen on any given play, understood).

If it was possible, I always tried to sub without the team on the field looking like subs.

We do the same, with the exception of putting in JV when the game is completely out of hand. We rotate starters in small groups, by position. (new LG & RT and RB for a series), making sure that #2's get reps w/ #1's. That's not the issue. The issue is "we feel like we've worked hard enough to say in a game into the late 3rd/early 4th quarter because we've earned the right to continue playing"

We had an outlook that was more about finishing in a certain manner.  If we were up 40-12, and the subs let in two more touchdowns, and they end up with 26 pts.?  40-26 doesn't look the same as 40-12 in our eyes.  We feel like we worked hard enough to let the score reflect how good we really were.

It might sound trite or petty, but that was just the way we approached things.

[bluboy]

We do not start subbing until the opponent starts subbing. We have been in a number of games where we scored enough to get a running clock and started wholesale subbing . Our opponents kept their starters in the game, and our young kids got beat up. So now, we will not sub until the other guys sub. We might make some individual substitutions, but no wholesale until the other guys raise the white flag.
When we do sub, the seniors who have been in the program for four years are the first in; then the underclassmen.

[jg78]

I never made wholesale changes, especially on defense.

You have to be careful about subbing on defense. You put in a lot of crappy players on D and the opponent can put a 2-3 TD's on the board in a hurry and next thing you know you're throwing your starters back in there to stop the bleeding.

A few years ago we were playing a team and it was 35-7 about midway through the fourth quarter. We subbed and they scored. They kicked an onside kick, recovered it, and scored again. So now it's 35-21 with about 4:00 to go and they are lining up for another onside quick. So we put the starters back in to finish the game.

There are two things I won't do anymore:

1. Mass sub on D.

2. Put anyone on the kickoff team that isn't at least a solid defensive player. No scrubs anywhere at any time. Maybe some capable backups late in the game for key starters but that's it.

[fantom]

We start by taking out the guys who would be hard to replace if they get hurt. If we put in a new backfield we'll usually give them a series with the first OL. After that, when the issue is no longer in doubt we will make wholesale changes. We want to make sure that everybody gets in and if we replace them one or two at a time that may not happen.

As for kids getting mad about being taken out, hey, it ain't a freakin' democracy.

[hunhdisciple]

Sept 1, 2015 11:07:42 GMT -6 syk said:

Sept 1, 2015 10:59:07 GMT -6 joelee said:

Do you have seniors who don't start or play who want to go in? We had this situation before. We get them in first before jv guys because they can't ever play in a game unless it is a blowout.

Yes, we sub throughout the 1st-2nd quarter to establish depth, and then we sub in SR's and Jr's 3rd team guys before I go to Fresh/SOph guys. It's the #1's that feel like they're getting cheated out of playing time because our first couple opponents aren't very good and its like 50-0 at halftime. 

If you told our starters that they could have a blow out and wouldn't play the whole game, they would treat it like Double Christmas.

When young guys get in, the starters and everybody is yelling and cheering for them. When one of them scores, our whole sideline parties pretty much. Beyond regular TD excitement. It's actually pretty fun.

[coachwoodall]

It will be interesting this year, we use to get 8 quarters a week for kids. This year we have to go strictly 4 quarters, so my JV won't be around for the blow outs.

I've got my SR subs and a couple extras. That's it. Some body is going to get their feelings hurt bc I don't have that JV to put into the game.

I hope I don't get anyone hurt.

[blb]

Sept 1, 2015 19:18:53 GMT -6 fantom said:

We start by taking out the guys who would be hard to replace if they get hurt. If we put in a new backfield we'll usually give them a series with the first OL. After that, when the issue is no longer in doubt we will make wholesale changes. We want to make sure that everybody gets in and if we replace them one or two at a time that may not happen.

As for kids getting mad about being taken out, hey, it ain't a freakin' democracy.

"This is a meritocracy and I'm the dictator."

Want to play more? Show it in drills, on Scout Team,  and on Special Teams.

When we're doing Team if you're standing behind me instead of participating - you're still practicing what you'll be doing Friday night.

[dubber]

Another consideration for small teams.

In Indiana, a player gets 5 quarters a week of play.

So, if a JV kid goes in the 3rd quarter and also plays in the 4th, they can only play 3 quarters of JV.

That can leave us shorthanded (I rolled with 12 kids on JV last season).

So, we often leave in varsity caliber guys until the start of the 4th. This is for those extreme blow out games.

We may have a kid who is a defensive starter play his offensive position (that he NEVER plays when the game is in doubt), but we save our JV kids until the 4th.

[coachbdud]

I usually leave starters til the end of the 3rd and have all backups the entire 4th

If I have some backups who are really solid and close to starting level I'll put them in sooner to give them more reps

I pull our RB at the half of we have a big lead. He's gonna get plenty of carries and stats
He doesn't need to take any extra shots in a blow out
And we always have plenty of RBs

It's usually most difficult for me as the OL guy

The drop off between my #1 and #2 guys is crazy and then I am putting skill guys in harms way behind an OL that can not do much

[jlenwood]

Most teams we play start subbing right after halftime.......oh wait, you wanted to know when WE sub in a blowout.  uh, we don't have to worry about that.

[hunhdisciple]

Sept 2, 2015 6:45:49 GMT -6 jlenwood said:

Most teams we play start subbing right after halftime.......oh wait, you wanted to know when WE sub in a blowout.  uh, we don't have to worry about that.

This is a different side to the story that no one has talked about.

When/if you are down by, let's say 30+, do you start putting other guys in who wouldn't normally play? I've seen teams keep everyone in when the winning teams has their D team in. I get it that smaller schools wouldn't have this luxury. But, when do you sub out when it's decided in the other direction for you?

I've always felt that when the other team starts doing it, so do you. But if they don't, and are trying to run the score up, you just send the younger guys in and be the bigger person.

I'd be interested in hearing what others think, though.

[John Knight]

New rule in ohio last year went to 30 point running clock. This helps the second half goes by very fast.

[Defcord]

I heard James Franklin say it but I also believe it. "If a kid was in and he got injured and you would regret him being in the game then that's the point you start subbing." I think as coaches we know when the game is over and we should start subbing them at this point.

[pistola]

Sept 1, 2015 22:33:10 GMT -6 coachbdud said:

I usually leave starters til the end of the 3rd and have all backups the entire 4th

If I have some backups who are really solid and close to starting level I'll put them in sooner to give them more reps

I pull our RB at the half of we have a big lead. He's gonna get plenty of carries and stats
He doesn't need to take any extra shots in a blow out
And we always have plenty of RBs

It's usually most difficult for me as the OL guy

The drop off between my #1 and #2 guys is crazy and then I am putting skill guys in harms way behind an OL that can not do much

alot of this.. and it really varies from game to game, team to team. If the 2s and 3s can hold their own no problem with a wholesale change on offense. if they are just out there getting smashed then sub in pieces. Defense will usually always sub in pieces.

[John Knight]

yep, if you get a starter hurt in a game that is decided you should be fired, my old HC used to say!

[newt21]

I start making subs on offense before defense. On offense the last positions to get subbed are the offensive line. When I make subs on defense, the first place is the defensive line. All of it balances out because we have backup skill players on offense with first OL, and backups on DL with first defense. Never wholesale, made that mistake one year when we were up 28 at the half and they came back to within 6.

[CoachMikeJudy]

It's been a few years since we have been in a position like this, but I believe that when a game is in hand, in the 4th qrt, you can sub as you see fit- for us it may NOT be a wholesale change, but maybe by position mixing a few young OL + WR in with some starters. We are a 2 platoon team- and we basically serve as each other's backups in most cases. I'm not going to, in the event of a blowout, put my starting DT in at OL...I would hope we have a few JV kids dressing and play them.

On the other side of the story, we've been on the bad side of a blowout. I personally don't get aggravated with other coaches who don't sub their JV guys early- that's an "us" problem not a "them" problem in my eyes. What is worse- your starters getting thrashed by their 1st team or their JV? I've seen it happen and in my experience it's WAY more demoralizing when their JV RB runs for 2 TD's on you...

[coachwoodall]

Sept 1, 2015 21:42:48 GMT -6 dubber said:

Another consideration for small teams.

In Indiana, a player gets 5 quarters a week of play.

So, if a JV kid goes in the 3rd quarter and also plays in the 4th, they can only play 3 quarters of JV.

That can leave us shorthanded (I rolled with 12 kids on JV last season).

So, we often leave in varsity caliber guys until the start of the 4th. This is for those extreme blow out games.

We may have a kid who is a defensive starter play his offensive position (that he NEVER plays when the game is in doubt), but we save our JV kids until the 4th.

That's our problem. We had the 8 quarter rule, per week so we had Those JV guys to roll in. Now, with a strict JV/Varsity split, those JV cats are sitting in the stands trying to get some leg, and we're still running varsity staters in a blow out.  

Think how the fans/media will play the 'They still had the staters in the 4th....', screed.  Not that I give a chyt, but that will happen to someone in our Region/Conference. 

[coachtua]

The previous school I coached was a small school but tops in the section. Our philosophy was you have to play us for a half. Obviously based on the skills set of the other team we would change our play calling as the half progressed. However, that being said, if you are gonna leave your starting offense on the field and throw fades against a DB that doesnt really belong on the field, I will put my starting offense on the field throw a fade then go for 2 to prove a point.