One conference, 3 state finalists

[John Knight]

www.daytondailynews.com/sports/mac-winning-formula-soccer-peewee-football-transfers/NYNPJuYeMyjNRD9Vm28yiJ/

[jbutch17]

They've done a great job, it is really uncommon to have conferences represented in 3 division (many are represented in 2). This has also been assisted by the addition of the 7th divsion. They play quality football, I've seen them many times, but in the Ohio landscape they got excessive amounts of love from people that see them play once a year: because they are "wholesome" public schools and the OHSAA is about ready to face a schism.

For those of you not from Ohio and unfamiliar, 2 of these schools Marion Local and Coldwater (playing in their 8th straight state title game) COULD be forced up a division as a PENALTY for being too successful.

[pistolwhipped]

Dec 2, 2016 8:37:17 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

They've done a great job, it is really uncommon to have conferences represented in 3 division (many are represented in 2). This has also been assisted by the addition of the 7th divsion. They play quality football, I've seen them many times, but in the Ohio landscape they got excessive amounts of love from people that see them play once a year: because they are "wholesome" public schools and the OHSAA is about ready to face a schism.

For those of you not from Ohio and unfamiliar, 2 of these schools Marion Local and Coldwater (playing in their 8th straight state title game) COULD be forced up a division as a PENALTY for being too successful.

Indiana has had this in place for a while.  "Success factor" 

[jbutch17]

Dec 2, 2016 11:55:12 GMT -6 pistolwhipped said:

Dec 2, 2016 8:37:17 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

They've done a great job, it is really uncommon to have conferences represented in 3 division (many are represented in 2). This has also been assisted by the addition of the 7th divsion. They play quality football, I've seen them many times, but in the Ohio landscape they got excessive amounts of love from people that see them play once a year: because they are "wholesome" public schools and the OHSAA is about ready to face a schism.

For those of you not from Ohio and unfamiliar, 2 of these schools Marion Local and Coldwater (playing in their 8th straight state title game) COULD be forced up a division as a PENALTY for being too successful.

Indiana has had this in place for a while.  "Success factor" 

Totally against the essence of sports/competition

[coachwoodall]

Our region has 4 teams competing in the quarter finals tonight. Guaranteed that 1 will be playing for the big cookie. That is in AAAAA.

There also is another region in our state that is also undefeated in the playoffs, that one is A.

[****]

Have a school in our classification that has won the last 6 in a row... wouldn't mind if they got bumped up.

[carookie]

Dec 2, 2016 8:37:17 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

They've done a great job, it is really uncommon to have conferences represented in 3 division (many are represented in 2). This has also been assisted by the addition of the 7th divsion. They play quality football, I've seen them many times, but in the Ohio landscape they got excessive amounts of love from people that see them play once a year: because they are "wholesome" public schools and the OHSAA is about ready to face a schism.

For those of you not from Ohio and unfamiliar, 2 of these schools Marion Local and Coldwater (playing in their 8th straight state title game) COULD be forced up a division as a PENALTY for being too successful.

Southern California has just started doing it this year (splitting up leagues for the playoffs and moving teams up and down based on most recent two years).

I was at a small school that last year made it to the championship of D11, and graduated 16 seniors of the 37 man roster (including the entire Oline, and all but 4 total starters). So this year they got moved up to D6 for the playoffs, and get thumped. Conversely, a school in their same league, with larger enrollment, got to stick around in d11 and made it to the semis. There are some leagues of 6 teams+ where none of the schools are in the same division come playoffs.

I am fine with trying to get teams that are consistently better in higher divisions but: A) they need to use a larger sample size than just a couple of year (so as to not penalize teams that get a really good class), B) take into account the size of the school (even though they are just doing this to reward mediocre schools with high enrollment), C) try to keep some league uniformity.


It really is awful 

[fantom]

Dec 2, 2016 12:03:16 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

Dec 2, 2016 11:55:12 GMT -6 pistolwhipped said:

Indiana has had this in place for a while.  "Success factor" 

Totally against the essence of sports/competition

Why?

[coachd5085]

Dec 2, 2016 17:24:27 GMT -6 fantom said:

Dec 2, 2016 12:03:16 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

Totally against the essence of sports/competition

Why?

Would it be a good Idea for North Dakota State to be forced to join the Big Ten because they have 4 consecutive FCS titles, yet have to keep their scholarship numbers the same?

[19delta]

Two years ago in Illinois, Forreston won the 1a state title and Eastland-Pearl City won the 2a state title. Both schools are in the same conference. Eastland-Pearl City went 14-0 that year and Forreston went 13-1. Their only loss was to Eastland-Pearl City.

The conference (The Northwest Upstate Illini Conference) has produced something like 11 state titles in the last 14 years. Best small-school ball in Illinois.

[wildcatslbcoach24]

Teams shouldn't be punished because of success, but I feel leagues should be based on enrollment. Conferences can be a bit of a wired situation especially we you have conferences with team from 3-4 divisions playing in them. Cleveland suburb and exurbs deal with this a lot. I feel you should, in league play play teams in a relative enrollment band. That would eliminate situations where teams who are division 4 or 5 play division 6 or 7 teams on the road to a conference title. Also feel the state should create a private / parochial playoff, but it won't happen

[coachd5085]

Can you guys give examples of these set ups. In louisiana (until the recent public/private split) it was fairly logical. There were 5 classifications (based on enrollment) and within those classes, you had 10-11 districts set by geography. All members of the district were in the same classification. There wasn't a third grouping like these conferences.

[19delta]

Dec 2, 2016 8:37:17 GMT -6 jbutch17 said:

They've done a great job, it is really uncommon to have conferences represented in 3 division (many are represented in 2). This has also been assisted by the addition of the 7th divsion. They play quality football, I've seen them many times, but in the Ohio landscape they got excessive amounts of love from people that see them play once a year: because they are "wholesome" public schools and the OHSAA is about ready to face a schism.

For those of you not from Ohio and unfamiliar, 2 of these schools Marion Local and Coldwater (playing in their 8th straight state title game) COULD be forced up a division as a PENALTY for being too successful.

There is a "success" multiplier in Illinois, as well. This year's runner up in the 6a title game actually had fewer kids than the team that won the 5a title game (8a is the largest class in Illinois).

[19delta]

Dec 2, 2016 20:31:29 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Can you guys give examples of these set ups. In louisiana (until the recent public/private split) it was fairly logical. There were 5 classifications (based on enrollment) and within those classes, you had 10-11 districts set by geography. All members of the district were in the same classification. There wasn't a third grouping like these conferences.

Illinois

• No district ball. Most teams will play 9 scheduled games. Most schools are part of a conference based on geography. Most conferences will have schools from different classes. If a conference does not have 10 teams, the schools in the conference will have to seek out non-conference games.
• Playoffs begin after Week 9. 256 high school teams will make the playoffs (about half the schools that play football in the state). All conference champions and teams with at least 6 wins automatically qualify. Teams with 5 wins will earn a spot based on "playoff points" (number of wins by opponents). 
• The 32 teams with the largest enrollments are 8a. Next 32 biggest are 7a, etc, etc, all the way down to 1a. Private schools and schools with open enrollments get their student population multiplied by a factor of 1.65.
• For the 1a-6a playoffs, the 32 teams are split into two 16-team "halfs". The split generally follows a north-south alignment. The organization that runs high school sports in Illinois has it set up this way so the state title game for those 6 classes will feature one team from the northern portion of the state and one team from the southern portion of the state. The 7a and 8a playoff teams are not grouped as the vast majority of those 64 teams come from the Chicago metropolitan area. Teams are seeded based on the team's regular season record and playoff points.
• It takes 5 games to win a state title. 1st round (32 teams), 2nd Round (16 teams), Quarterfinals (8 teams), Semifinals (4 teams), Finals (2 teams).

[freezeoption]

there is a town in iowa that has two teams in the same conference, in the same town, in different class win the state championship this year, Boyden-Hull-Rock Valley, and Western Christian, BHRV is three towns but still considered Hull, Western Christian is in Hull but is private so they get kids all around, there is another private school in Hull and I think they have football, I think they just started and don't know how they did,

[coachd5085]

Dec 2, 2016 21:47:16 GMT -6 19delta said:

Dec 2, 2016 20:31:29 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Can you guys give examples of these set ups. In louisiana (until the recent public/private split) it was fairly logical. There were 5 classifications (based on enrollment) and within those classes, you had 10-11 districts set by geography. All members of the district were in the same classification. There wasn't a third grouping like these conferences.

Illinois

• No district ball. Most teams will play 9 scheduled games. Most schools are part of a conference based on geography. Most conferences will have schools from different classes. If a conference does not have 10 teams, the schools in the conference will have to seek out non-conference games.
• Playoffs begin after Week 9. 256 high school teams will make the playoffs (about half the schools that play football in the state). All conference champions and teams with at least 6 wins automatically qualify. Teams with 5 wins will earn a spot based on "playoff points" (number of wins by opponents). 
• The 32 teams with the largest enrollments are 8a. Next 32 biggest are 7a, etc, etc, all the way down to 1a. Private schools and schools with open enrollments get their student population multiplied by a factor of 1.65.
• For the 1a-6a playoffs, the 32 teams are split into two 16-team "halfs". The split generally follows a north-south alignment. The organization that runs high school sports in Illinois has it set up this way so the state title game for those 6 classes will feature one team from the northern portion of the state and one team from the southern portion of the state. The 7a and 8a playoff teams are not grouped as the vast majority of those 64 teams come from the Chicago metropolitan area. Teams are seeded based on the team's regular season record and playoff points.
• It takes 5 games to win a state title. 1st round (32 teams), 2nd Round (16 teams), Quarterfinals (8 teams), Semifinals (4 teams), Finals (2 teams).

That just seems so bizarre to me.  In that type of set up, when I was in HS, my HS (enrollment of about 250) would have probably been in a conference with the other schools in the city which had enrollments of about 500, 650, 1000, 1200. 

[carookie]

Dec 2, 2016 20:31:29 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Can you guys give examples of these set ups. In louisiana (until the recent public/private split) it was fairly logical. There were 5 classifications (based on enrollment) and within those classes, you had 10-11 districts set by geography. All members of the district were in the same classification. There wasn't a third grouping like these conferences.

In Southern California leagues are leagues- primarily consist of nearby schools of similar size (you know, as they logically do).

Divisions for playoffs, now, have nothing to do with leagues; it basically a formula of how successful you have been over the past two seasons, the more successful the higher playoff division you are placed in. For example, Long Beach Poly (a long time powerhouse) in the Moore League with other local teams and is in Division 1 (with the other highest ranked teams in So Cal). However, also in their league is Compton who is in division 12, the second lowest playoff division; all other teams in the Moore league are in divisions 6 and lower.

I use this example because it was one of the reasons So Cal re-aligned. Basically, all the other Moore league schools were tired of being forced to play in the D1 playoffs and getting trounced (as they used to be)- there are a few other extreme examples of this, where one dominant team drags a mediocre league upward. So in an effort to appease big schools that can't compete CIF decided to realign the playoffs. 

A couple side notes: division 1 consists of only 18 teams, so all but two teams will make the playoffs; however the worse the division the more teams there are. Division 7 consists of 23 teams (all but seven make the playoff) and division 13 (the lowest division) consists of 85 teams. So they threw over 20% of the bottom feeding teams and bunched them together in D13; making sure the better teams at least make the playoffs.

So here is my major beef with the system, as was cited above with punishing a team for being successful. If you want to move a team like Long Beach Poly, or Corona Centennial, or any of the firmly established dominant schools, up divisions above their league then that is fine. However, the window the CIF is using is only 2 years. So if you are at a mid sized school and get a good group of kids in a specific class, then by the time they are Seniors, their earlier success will force them to compete in the playoffs against schools that have a built in advantage of the most fair variable (and the one that should be primarily considered) School Size.

Really, the key for CIF would be to balance out leagues to the best of their abilities (maybe by shrinking them to create a greater homogeneity in talent) and then utilize a larger sample size when measuring success or failure; so as to not punish that group of kids who over achieve.   

[19delta]

Dec 3, 2016 10:59:31 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Dec 2, 2016 21:47:16 GMT -6 19delta said:

Illinois

• No district ball. Most teams will play 9 scheduled games. Most schools are part of a conference based on geography. Most conferences will have schools from different classes. If a conference does not have 10 teams, the schools in the conference will have to seek out non-conference games.
• Playoffs begin after Week 9. 256 high school teams will make the playoffs (about half the schools that play football in the state). All conference champions and teams with at least 6 wins automatically qualify. Teams with 5 wins will earn a spot based on "playoff points" (number of wins by opponents). 
• The 32 teams with the largest enrollments are 8a. Next 32 biggest are 7a, etc, etc, all the way down to 1a. Private schools and schools with open enrollments get their student population multiplied by a factor of 1.65.
• For the 1a-6a playoffs, the 32 teams are split into two 16-team "halfs". The split generally follows a north-south alignment. The organization that runs high school sports in Illinois has it set up this way so the state title game for those 6 classes will feature one team from the northern portion of the state and one team from the southern portion of the state. The 7a and 8a playoff teams are not grouped as the vast majority of those 64 teams come from the Chicago metropolitan area. Teams are seeded based on the team's regular season record and playoff points.
• It takes 5 games to win a state title. 1st round (32 teams), 2nd Round (16 teams), Quarterfinals (8 teams), Semifinals (4 teams), Finals (2 teams).

That just seems so bizarre to me.  In that type of set up, when I was in HS, my HS (enrollment of about 250) would have probably been in a conference with the other schools in the city which had enrollments of about 500, 650, 1000, 1200. 

To my knowledge, there aren't any conferences in Illinois with anywhere near that much enrollment diversity. For example, in my area, there is one 18-team conference that spans about a 5-county area. The 18 teams are then divided into a "big" school and "little" school division. However, almost 18 schools have pretty close enrollments that would put them all in either the 1a or 2a playoffs (the two smallest classes out of 8 total classes).

There probably are some conferences with teams that span 2 or more classes. But generally speaking, the teams in a conference are going to be pretty similar in enrollment to each other.

[coachd5085]

Dec 3, 2016 17:55:14 GMT -6 19delta said:

Dec 3, 2016 10:59:31 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

That just seems so bizarre to me.  In that type of set up, when I was in HS, my HS (enrollment of about 250) would have probably been in a conference with the other schools in the city which had enrollments of about 500, 650, 1000, 1200. 

To my knowledge, there aren't any conferences in Illinois with anywhere near that much enrollment diversity. For example, in my area, there is one 18-team conference that spans about a 5-county area. The 18 teams are then divided into a "big" school and "little" school division. However, almost 18 schools have pretty close enrollments that would put them all in either the 1a or 2a playoffs (the two smallest classes out of 8 total classes).

There probably are some conferences with teams that span 2 or more classes. But generally speaking, the teams in a conference are going to be pretty similar in enrollment to each other.

Ok, I am a little confused then. Why 9 team "conferences" with somewhat close enrollment situations when you could make 5-6 team districts with very close enrollment situations?

I might not understand the whole picture. What I was describing was just my city geographically. Are you saying that teams in the same city would be in different conferences (that are more geographically spread) If so, I don't see why they just don't have much smaller discrepancies in the enrollment.

[19delta]

Dec 3, 2016 18:11:36 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Dec 3, 2016 17:55:14 GMT -6 19delta said:

To my knowledge, there aren't any conferences in Illinois with anywhere near that much enrollment diversity. For example, in my area, there is one 18-team conference that spans about a 5-county area. The 18 teams are then divided into a "big" school and "little" school division. However, almost 18 schools have pretty close enrollments that would put them all in either the 1a or 2a playoffs (the two smallest classes out of 8 total classes).

There probably are some conferences with teams that span 2 or more classes. But generally speaking, the teams in a conference are going to be pretty similar in enrollment to each other.

Ok, I am a little confused then. Why 9 team "conferences" with somewhat close enrollment situations when you could make 5-6 team districts with very close enrollment situations?

I might not understand the whole picture. What I was describing was just my city geographically. Are you saying that teams in the same city would be in different conferences (that are more geographically spread) If so, I don't see why they just don't have much smaller discrepancies in the enrollment.

I believe that there was a vote this past winter to move to a district format but the vote did not pass. You know how those things go...we have been doing it this way forever so change will come slowly. I do think that it is probably moving in that direction, however.

To your second point, conference affiliation is tied mush more to enrollment than it is to geography. For example, the nearest "big" city to me has two high schools that play football. One of the schools is a public high school with more than 1200 students while the other is a private Catholic school with about 100 students. The schools are not in the same conference nor do they play each other.  

[coachd5085]

Dec 3, 2016 18:32:46 GMT -6 19delta said:

Dec 3, 2016 18:11:36 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Ok, I am a little confused then. Why 9 team "conferences" with somewhat close enrollment situations when you could make 5-6 team districts with very close enrollment situations?

I might not understand the whole picture. What I was describing was just my city geographically. Are you saying that teams in the same city would be in different conferences (that are more geographically spread) If so, I don't see why they just don't have much smaller discrepancies in the enrollment.

I believe that there was a vote this past winter to move to a district format but the vote did not pass. You know how those things go...we have been doing it this way forever so change will come slowly. I do think that it is probably moving in that direction, however.

To your second point, conference affiliation is tied mush more to enrollment than it is to geography. For example, the nearest "big" city to me has two high schools that play football. One of the schools is a public high school with more than 1200 students while the other is a private Catholic school with about 100 students. The schools are not in the same conference nor do they play each other.  

Got it.  Just doesn't seem to make much sense..at least as I am envisioning it.  

[pistolwhipped]

Dec 2, 2016 20:05:48 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Dec 2, 2016 17:24:27 GMT -6 fantom said:

Why?

Would it be a good Idea for North Dakota State to be forced to join the Big Ten because they have 4 consecutive FCS titles, yet have to keep their scholarship numbers the same?

This sort of thing has worked pretty well in European soccer for quite some time.  

If you pair the MAC/Big Ten you allow the MAC Champion to move into the Big Ten the following year while the last place finisher is relegated to the MAC.  This allows teams like Western Michigan the opportunity to prove their worth in a Power 5 conference by earning it.

[coachd5085]

Dec 5, 2016 10:11:41 GMT -6 pistolwhipped said:

Dec 2, 2016 20:05:48 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Would it be a good Idea for North Dakota State to be forced to join the Big Ten because they have 4 consecutive FCS titles, yet have to keep their scholarship numbers the same?

This sort of thing has worked pretty well in European soccer for quite some time.  

If you pair the MAC/Big Ten you allow the MAC Champion to move into the Big Ten the following year while the last place finisher is relegated to the MAC.  This allows teams like Western Michigan the opportunity to prove their worth in a Power 5 conference by earning it.

Do European soccer teams have a difference in scholarship limits as well as money spent on the program?   You are talking about the MAC..which operates under the same rules as the Big Ten.  I am talking about an FCS school, since the original idea was about moving smaller enrollment but successful high school programs up to play larger enrolled and successful teams. 

[Chris Clement]

Dec 5, 2016 18:51:50 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Dec 5, 2016 10:11:41 GMT -6 pistolwhipped said:

This sort of thing has worked pretty well in European soccer for quite some time.  

If you pair the MAC/Big Ten you allow the MAC Champion to move into the Big Ten the following year while the last place finisher is relegated to the MAC.  This allows teams like Western Michigan the opportunity to prove their worth in a Power 5 conference by earning it.

Do European soccer teams have a difference in scholarship limits as well as money spent on the program?   You are talking about the MAC..which operates under the same rules as the Big Ten.  I am talking about an FCS school, since the original idea was about moving smaller enrollment but successful high school programs up to play larger enrolled and successful teams. 

In practical terms they do, some teams have very small budgets, stadia, academies, etc. but are very well run and so they tend to bounce back and forth between two different divisions.

[pistolwhipped]

Dec 5, 2016 18:57:37 GMT -6 Chris Clement said:

Dec 5, 2016 18:51:50 GMT -6 coachd5085 said:

Do European soccer teams have a difference in scholarship limits as well as money spent on the program?   You are talking about the MAC..which operates under the same rules as the Big Ten.  I am talking about an FCS school, since the original idea was about moving smaller enrollment but successful high school programs up to play larger enrolled and successful teams. 

In practical terms they do, some teams have very small budgets, stadia, academies, etc. but are very well run and so they tend to bounce back and forth between two different divisions.

Yes. All of that.

ps...in Indiana any school can ELECT to play "up".  It is rarely done, but has happened.

[John Knight]

Why have divisions at all then. Every team has 11 guys on it so they should all play in the same division and have just one state champion.