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Post by seabass on Feb 8, 2017 13:32:32 GMT -6
I have coached all 3 of the major sports at some point over the last 20 years.There is some really important stuff that football sets the stage to teach that the other sports just don't lend themselves to teaching as easily...IMO
Now that assumes you are aware of those things and have the intent to teach them. I know lots of coaches don't but that's not unique to youth coaches.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 8, 2017 16:38:20 GMT -6
Isn't that simply kicking the can down the road? What happens when 25 flag'rs show up to play Freshman ball? Who blocks? Sounds to me like youth weeds out the selfish players ( fathers ). Not going to get in to my thoughts on the whole deal, I think everyone has very strong opinions that aren't going to change. Arguably the most successful league in Ohio doesn't have youth football, they start in 7th grade have higher numbers than everyone and win an inordinate amount of games and state titles. While not the only factor (the league is an anomaly in a few other ways) it is a huge factor but when you tell that to other communities around them they have reasons why that would never work for them. However, in all of my coaching experiences some of the biggest headaches have been from the selfish dads that coached their kids or had a buddy coach their kids and inflated that youth league all star mentality so I don't really get what's being weeded out. Part of changing the mindset here is getting people to stop referring to how great their kid was in youth league ball and what bs all star team they were on etc. That has created significant issues and a whole new learning curve for those kids and dads as the kids had to learn how to be coached and had to learn they are not infallible. I could only imagine the problems that causes older level coaches in sports like soccer baseball volleyball and basketball that have year round youth teams. not exactly what you are getting at but it drives me up a wall...no different than the kid that was "really smart" in 5th grade but is barely passing in HS bc his ego has been inflated excuses have been made and he thinks he's the exception to work and being taught. The great debate for sure. I see some youth Orgs go to extremes to vet out and do a better job hiring coaches. And I see some that just do not care. Nepotism is certainly a front and center issue. I just have to wonder if a young kid played flag for say 4 years and never tackle and then showed up to play HS tackle...that would certainly be a shock to his system. Still I do agree....its the Adults that ruin youth sports.
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Post by fantom on Feb 8, 2017 16:57:24 GMT -6
Not going to get in to my thoughts on the whole deal, I think everyone has very strong opinions that aren't going to change. Arguably the most successful league in Ohio doesn't have youth football, they start in 7th grade have higher numbers than everyone and win an inordinate amount of games and state titles. While not the only factor (the league is an anomaly in a few other ways) it is a huge factor but when you tell that to other communities around them they have reasons why that would never work for them. However, in all of my coaching experiences some of the biggest headaches have been from the selfish dads that coached their kids or had a buddy coach their kids and inflated that youth league all star mentality so I don't really get what's being weeded out. Part of changing the mindset here is getting people to stop referring to how great their kid was in youth league ball and what bs all star team they were on etc. That has created significant issues and a whole new learning curve for those kids and dads as the kids had to learn how to be coached and had to learn they are not infallible. I could only imagine the problems that causes older level coaches in sports like soccer baseball volleyball and basketball that have year round youth teams. not exactly what you are getting at but it drives me up a wall...no different than the kid that was "really smart" in 5th grade but is barely passing in HS bc his ego has been inflated excuses have been made and he thinks he's the exception to work and being taught. The great debate for sure. I see some youth Orgs go to extremes to vet out and do a better job hiring coaches. And I see some that just do not care. Nepotism is certainly a front and center issue. I just have to wonder if a young kid played flag for say 4 years and never tackle and then showed up to play HS tackle...that would certainly be a shock to his system. Still I do agree....its the Adults that ruin youth sports. Flag would have been the only organized football he'd ever played. You can bet that he's played a lot of tackle football in backyards.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 8, 2017 21:50:02 GMT -6
Sounds to me like youth weeds out the selfish players ( fathers ). Or creates them....
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 8, 2017 21:56:51 GMT -6
Flag would have been the only organized football he'd ever played. You can bet that he's played a lot of tackle football in backyards. I don't think that is 100% accurate. He isn't playing "tackle football" as in the 11 vs 11 sport that involves keeping low pad level, blocking and block destruction predicated on leverage and hand position, keys and reads, maintaining gap integrity, pursuit angles based on designated force players etc. where not every player has a chance to catch the ball, and many players have completely different roles to play. He has just played some games using a football, passing, and tackling without equipment.
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Post by fantom on Feb 8, 2017 22:02:07 GMT -6
Flag would have been the only organized football he'd ever played. You can bet that he's played a lot of tackle football in backyards. I don't think that is 100% accurate. He isn't playing "tackle football" as in the 11 vs 11 sport that involves keeping low pad level, blocking and block destruction predicated on leverage and hand position, keys and reads, maintaining gap integrity, pursuit angles based on designated force players etc. where not every player has a chance to catch the ball, and many players have completely different roles to play. He has just played some games using a football, passing, and tackling without equipment. But tackling and body contact will not be a complete shock.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 8, 2017 22:11:43 GMT -6
I don't think that is 100% accurate. He isn't playing "tackle football" as in the 11 vs 11 sport that involves keeping low pad level, blocking and block destruction predicated on leverage and hand position, keys and reads, maintaining gap integrity, pursuit angles based on designated force players etc. where not every player has a chance to catch the ball, and many players have completely different roles to play. He has just played some games using a football, passing, and tackling without equipment. But tackling and body contact will not be a complete shock. Having watched a bunch of kids playing "tackle" football at recess (and having to be stopped) as a PE teacher for ages 5 - 11, I would argue that the two are not that closely related. One is more calf wrangling, the other is striking. That said, I don't know if the physical contact of football would be the biggest shock to a lifelong flag only player. Rather I think it would be the drill work and overall "monotony" as opposed to running around catching passes that would shock them.
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Post by fantom on Feb 8, 2017 22:50:27 GMT -6
But tackling and body contact will not be a complete shock. Having watched a bunch of kids playing "tackle" football at recess (and having to be stopped) as a PE teacher for ages 5 - 11, I would argue that the two are not that closely related. One is more calf wrangling, the other is striking. That said, I don't know if the physical contact of football would be the biggest shock to a lifelong flag only player. Rather I think it would be the drill work and overall "monotony" as opposed to running around catching passes that would shock them. Would it be that much different than for most who play youth football? I originally only got into this thread in answer to a post that said that HS football would die if youth football is banned. I don't believe that it will, at least not because the HS's feeder league, youth football, was banned. Might the same forces that killed youth ball eventually get HS football? Maybe but that's not the point that I was arguing.
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Post by CS on Feb 9, 2017 5:22:00 GMT -6
I really dont understand the argument that there will be a culture shock when the kids reach high school.
I'm saying start tackle football in middle school instead of elementary. That gives them 3-4 years to hit before varsity. Also, I was originally talking about a bill that would ban youth ball state wide. Its not going to be a some towns have it some towns don't type of deal.
To be honest, I really don't see what they are truly getting out of the contact at an early age.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 9, 2017 7:23:10 GMT -6
The same thing they are getting out of contact at an older age.
Assuming proper equipment and fitting, of course, which is a good point from earlier. But I don't think you just take away youth football because some org here or there has trouble fitting equipment. That's an easy problem to solve if you're serious about it...
I still think it is incredibly short-sighted to think that HS football is any more valuable or important than youth football. I do understand it is to you (plural) because that's what you coach. But don't make the mistake of thinking that its importance to you holds true from a broader perspective. I'd guess more than half my players will never set foot on a HS football field, either JV or varsity. Those kids still derive a tremendous benefit from playing football, and it's borderline ridiculous that some of you would say that's not important while at the same time espousing all of the benefits of football in HS.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 9, 2017 8:22:07 GMT -6
He isn't. The league hear does that Isn't that simply kicking the can down the road? What happens when 25 flag'rs show up to play Freshman ball? Who blocks? Sounds to me like youth weeds out the selfish players ( fathers ). Coach, If we had 25 kids showing up for freshmen ball, I wouldn't even be in this conversation. That would make roughly 50 for varsity and we never had those numbers even when times were great. My 9th grade class will have about 11 football players in it. But...maybe you're right and youth weeded out 14 kids. That said, I'd take'm...even some weeds eventually flower.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 9, 2017 9:57:24 GMT -6
Sounds to me like youth weeds out the selfish players ( fathers ). Or creates them.... Good point. I have watched as a fan my grand-kids play most all of the sports and I will say this....football fans are by far the most insane
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Post by mahonz on Feb 9, 2017 10:36:07 GMT -6
The great debate for sure. I see some youth Orgs go to extremes to vet out and do a better job hiring coaches. And I see some that just do not care. Nepotism is certainly a front and center issue. I just have to wonder if a young kid played flag for say 4 years and never tackle and then showed up to play HS tackle...that would certainly be a shock to his system. Still I do agree....its the Adults that ruin youth sports. Flag would have been the only organized football he'd ever played. You can bet that he's played a lot of tackle football in backyards. Sure but that's a different animal IMO. I will have kids join our tackle team that have played flag for a couple of seasons. Some jump right in, others do not. They have to get over their fear of contact first and foremost even if they had never played flag before. I would think that would be amplified at the HS levels compared to the youth levels. The speed of the game is certainly different. If there were no opportunity to play tackle pre HS then the HS Staffs would be dealing with this on a mass scale. For me, I dont coach the kids to prepare them for HS until their 7th grade season. By then attrition has hit and those that play are football geeks. We do not have MS sports here so its youth straight into HS. I would hope that I am do a service for the HS folks by sending them players that at least have a solid work ethic and a true love for the game. I also coach a Spring team as well. Its a shorten season and mostly a means to get better at playing this game since football is unique in that they cant practice their trade in the off season at a batting cage, for example. I catch a ton of grief for that but these kids are the true geeks and half of them are Linemen. They have no interest in anything but football and can hardly wait to play HS ball. Would your rather have those kids show up day one of Freshman ball or kids that have never played before? It seems to work. The last team I coached from 2nd -8th grade, 60% of those players started for their HS V teams. My youth Org feeds 5 HS Programs so there are about 100 positions available as my players scatter around after they are done with me. A handful are still playing College ball. My current team will be 8th graders this Fall. So it will be interesting to see how they do at the next level. And Im not the only youth coach that rolls this way. I know plenty that give maximum effort and why I will defend what we do.
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Post by lochness on Feb 9, 2017 11:01:12 GMT -6
If the worry is that "there are bad coaches out there," how about instead there is a requirement for a comprehensive program to train and educate (on a continuous basis) coaches who coach youth ball? I think this is far more productive than having a frigging LAW in place that says kids can't play a sport.
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Post by lochness on Feb 9, 2017 11:03:46 GMT -6
How do the flag leagues handle line men? Is there still blocking and running the ball? I think that's the beauty of flag football. Everyone plays a skilled position. Yeah, that's great for skinny kids whose specialty is running around and catching. What about the kids who don't do that well? To me, that's the entire beauty of tackle football...those guys are special and have a place to contribute in a major way unlike any other sport available.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 9, 2017 11:30:54 GMT -6
I think that's the beauty of flag football. Everyone plays a skilled position. Yeah, that's great for skinny kids whose specialty is running around and catching. What about the kids who don't do that well? To me, that's the entire beauty of tackle football...those guys are special and have a place to contribute in a major way unlike any other sport available. From my experience helping with youth camps and being around kids that age occasionally, the bigger slower kids although not great at it, they love being wr's. There aren't many 9 year olds that want to block every play and never touch the ball.
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Post by seabass on Feb 9, 2017 13:14:53 GMT -6
Regardless of where you stand on this issue, the last thing we need is another "law" about something.
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Post by lochness on Feb 9, 2017 15:25:46 GMT -6
Yeah, that's great for skinny kids whose specialty is running around and catching. What about the kids who don't do that well? To me, that's the entire beauty of tackle football...those guys are special and have a place to contribute in a major way unlike any other sport available. From my experience helping with youth camps and being around kids that age occasionally, the bigger slower kids although not great at it, they love being wr's. There aren't many 9 year olds that want to block every play and never touch the ball. But if they're going to play football...they're going to have to play that role at some point right? Better to learn it early than later after unrealistic expectations have been set. I mean, I love being the front man for a rock band and scoring a bunch of tail...but...that isn't really aligned with my skill set in the real world.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
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Post by SconnieOC on Feb 9, 2017 15:45:49 GMT -6
Talk about perfect timing. I just spoke with my good friend last night who was on his way home from a conference meeting last night that was initiated by the HC of the best team in the conference (and one of the best in the state) who proposed that they all begin to wean their communities off of youth football and into flag until 7th grade.
Sounds like he cited all the reasons that people have mentioned on here as reasons they should look into and potentially draft proposals to move forward. Every coach at the meeting supported it. I'd like to reiterate here, that this conference is traditionally strong, and 3-4 of the programs have won state over the last 10-15 years.. so it's high quality football.
The main reason this was brought up... they feel that they are losing kids early on in their careers because parents are worried about safety with 3rd graders tackling, and kids burning out on hitting before they get to high school. This was proposed as a potential answer. I just can't get over the fact that he called me last night, 5 minutes after I got done getting caught up on this thread.
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Post by seabass on Feb 9, 2017 16:43:59 GMT -6
@sconnieoc- I just want to make sure I understand you correctly... you are saying that a group of HS coaches got together and determined that they have the right to dictate to the parents of their community that their kids are not suited to play football prior to the 7th grade?
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Post by mahonz on Feb 9, 2017 18:02:55 GMT -6
Talk about perfect timing. I just spoke with my good friend last night who was on his way home from a conference meeting last night that was initiated by the HC of the best team in the conference (and one of the best in the state) who proposed that they all begin to wean their communities off of youth football and into flag until 7th grade. Sounds like he cited all the reasons that people have mentioned on here as reasons they should look into and potentially draft proposals to move forward. Every coach at the meeting supported it. I'd like to reiterate here, that this conference is traditionally strong, and 3-4 of the programs have won state over the last 10-15 years.. so it's high quality football. The main reason this was brought up... they feel that they are losing kids early on in their careers because parents are worried about safety with 3rd graders tackling, and kids burning out on hitting before they get to high school. This was proposed as a potential answer. I just can't get over the fact that he called me last night, 5 minutes after I got done getting caught up on this thread. Sad to hear. I started coaching youth ball in 1983. Parents were worried about 3rd graders tackling back then too. Only difference being you didn't have mass media drilling you with truths, half truths and fake news 24/7.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 9, 2017 18:04:45 GMT -6
Isn't that simply kicking the can down the road? What happens when 25 flag'rs show up to play Freshman ball? Who blocks? Sounds to me like youth weeds out the selfish players ( fathers ). Coach, If we had 25 kids showing up for freshmen ball, I wouldn't even be in this conversation. That would make roughly 50 for varsity and we never had those numbers even when times were great. My 9th grade class will have about 11 football players in it. But...maybe you're right and youth weeded out 14 kids. That said, I'd take'm...even some weeds eventually flower. Are you saying times are not so great?
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
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Post by SconnieOC on Feb 10, 2017 7:05:47 GMT -6
@sconnieoc- I just want to make sure I understand you correctly... you are saying that a group of HS coaches got together and determined that they have the right to dictate to the parents of their community that their kids are not suited to play football prior to the 7th grade? Not at all.. I said that they are looking into proposing to their communities that they don't tackle until 7th grade. I said nothing about dictating. You're exaggerating the point that I was making They are looking for answers for their dwindling varsity numbers, and the consensus was (again, I wasn't there, this is my friend telling me this) that coaches are getting less kids to freshman/jv much less to varsity, and they're willing to try anything. They're willing to try anything.. even if it means creating a separate league for flag, and letting kids choose. Which I would be fine with.. just give kids options.. give parents options... turn less kids away early. I would also like to make the point that I am as pro-football, anti-pu$$ification of this country as it gets. As I stated earlier, I just don't want to see our game going in a bad direction, because we were too stubborn to let kids play flag football as 4th graders.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 10, 2017 10:16:49 GMT -6
So the NFL Play 60 flag stuff is for-profit - if there was a perceived market for it, somebody would have already been all over it. Our town has a thriving flag program, and it's one of the factors that is hurting our tackle numbers. That program has been around for years now, and the HS numbers are still decreasing - they still rely on our tackle program to produce players. Maybe with the stamp of approval from the local HS coaches it'll be different.
Our local HS also tried to get something going with Middle School football - they felt that maybe having it start up with school (vs. Aug 1 when Pop Warner starts) and practice right after school vs. in the evenings would help the numbers. They also wanted control over it. There is a MS league in our area, primarily (again just speaking for our immediate area) in towns where youth football (and the HS program) struggled for #'s. One thing they got right - the MS numbers went up. But their HS #'s didn't - the kids who weren't going to play in HS STILL aren't going to play in HS. And, ironically, every single one of those HS programs has gotten worse since they implemented the MS program. My guess is it's because the kids aren't getting coached as well in the school run MS programs as compared to the youth program - the pool of potential coaches is a lot smaller/lower quality for a MS program than it is for a youth program that practices after work hours. That's not to say we don't have successful HS programs with affiliated MS programs, but generally, in eastern MA, it seems like there are more good HS programs with good youth football programs than flag or MS programs (cue someone from here showing I'm wrong about that, which is fine. Just what I see). Some of those youth programs have a solid connection to the HS, some don't.
If a group of HS coaches somehow think flag will get the numbers up because of perceptions of safety, God bless. I still feel bad for the kids who could have been helped by playing real football and now don't have that option. Edit - I deleted some of my comments here, too many assumptions made.
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Post by seabass on Feb 10, 2017 11:43:13 GMT -6
@sconnieoc- I just want to make sure I understand you correctly... you are saying that a group of HS coaches got together and determined that they have the right to dictate to the parents of their community that their kids are not suited to play football prior to the 7th grade? Not at all.. I said that they are looking into proposing to their communities that they don't tackle until 7th grade. I said nothing about dictating. You're exaggerating the point that I was making They are looking for answers for their dwindling varsity numbers, and the consensus was (again, I wasn't there, this is my friend telling me this) that coaches are getting less kids to freshman/jv much less to varsity, and they're willing to try anything. They're willing to try anything.. even if it means creating a separate league for flag, and letting kids choose. Which I would be fine with.. just give kids options.. give parents options... turn less kids away early. I would also like to make the point that I am as pro-football, anti-pu$$ification of this country as it gets. As I stated earlier, I just don't want to see our game going in a bad direction, because we were too stubborn to let kids play flag football as 4th graders.
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Post by seabass on Feb 10, 2017 11:56:37 GMT -6
@sconnieoc-I wasn't trying to be a dick and I picked up on your anti-pu$$ification vibe as well. I may have misinterpreted what you meant when you said this group of coaches was looking to "wean" parents off of youth tackle football. All I heard was a group of people were deciding what is best for everybody else (maybe just themselves).
I didn't know that there were areas around the country that had no flag option. We have a huge flag football league in our area. Only time will tell but a vast majority of those kids playing flag football in my area won't play HS football...IMO.
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coachcorrea
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Post by coachcorrea on Feb 13, 2017 18:51:06 GMT -6
This all premature let me know when they do something about it . Nobody leaving the millions of doller's youth football put's in peoples pockets. It's footballs biggest market look at numbers as a whole. Instead of worrying about getting better this is what we choose to talk about. Will never make sense to me smdh.
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coachcorrea
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Post by coachcorrea on Feb 13, 2017 18:54:09 GMT -6
AYF and PW aren't going any were to much money I'll say it again !!!!!!
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 13, 2017 21:34:46 GMT -6
I have always thought that kids shouldn't play tackle football until 7th grade 6th at the earliest for several reasons. One being most of the kids font have proper fitting equipment. sounds like you agree with the bill, then There's a difference between "shouldn't" and illegal.
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 13, 2017 21:36:59 GMT -6
Sometimes we should take a minute and just watch children on the playground...they play games where they tackle each other, all the time! Let kids play and they work in tackling. True, and an important point. Legislation wouldn't make it illegal for children to play tackle football...only for adults to supervise them.
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