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Post by groundchuck on Feb 15, 2017 14:56:41 GMT -6
I had this conversation with my principal. He was critiquing the performance of one of our winter sport coaches. He said that this coach told their team they were at fault for the loss the other night. My principal explained he did not think it was ever appropriate for a coach to lay blame on the players.
Please discuss.
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Post by bigmoot on Feb 15, 2017 15:01:08 GMT -6
Depension how it is said. I don't think you say "we lost cause you stink." But if you show them on film the DT didn't squeeze, 5 fumbles, poor technique.
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Post by carookie on Feb 15, 2017 15:07:55 GMT -6
I think you are asking two questions:
1) When should a coach,openly to others, blame his players for a loss? 2) When is it the players fault, more so than the coaches, for a loss?
To me, the answer to #1 is never. I know a lot of coaches who feel differently, and that publicly blaming the players is how you keep them accountable. I disagree.
#2- When the players on your roster are severely naturally talent deficient relative to their opposition. You give me the NE Patriots, and you give Bill Belichick our JV team, and we each get a month to prepare. I win 100 times out of 100. Why? My players are vastly more talented than his that no level of coaching that he could provide would lead to a victory.
Regardless, and I am trying real hard not to prejudge, but when a coach complains to an administrator that its the players fault then I doubt he is really a coach at all. He sounds more like a "teller", someone who tells players what they should do, but doesnt really coach them. Then when they fail he gets angry and claims they don't do what they were coached- but they did do what they were coached, you just didnt coach them to do what you were telling them to.
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Post by aceback76 on Feb 15, 2017 15:12:56 GMT -6
I had this conversation with my principal. He was critiquing the performance of one of our winter sport coaches. He said that this coach told their team they were at fault for the loss the other night. My principal explained he did not think it was ever appropriate for a coach to lay blame on the players. Please discuss. Touchy subject, bit it has been our experience (more often than not) that if the players don't "get it", you probably didn't go over it enough!
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Post by newt21 on Feb 15, 2017 15:17:08 GMT -6
Depension how it is said. I don't think you say "we lost cause you stink." But if you show them on film the DT didn't squeeze, 5 fumbles, poor technique. I agree with this, you show the kids why you lost and then use your practice time to fix those things. At the end of the day, players play and coaches coach. It's your job to put them in position to make a play but it's up to them to make it.
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Post by tothehouse on Feb 15, 2017 15:20:44 GMT -6
Can I throw this in there?
What if you are over matched completely? Would you blame the players because they are less talented than the players they go up against? What if your players just suck? You have to understand their suckyness (made up word) and do your best to have a dog in the fight. If you do that then that's all you can do.
I think it's a cop out to blame the players because whatever their deficiency could/should have been addressed by you...the coach...the adult. If you feel like you've addressed all of this...and you lose. Accept it. Move on. Get better.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 15:20:45 GMT -6
Our HC never blames our team for a loss, he always says, "When we lose it's because we (the coaches) didn't prepare you well." To me, that's BS. There are times when kids just don't do what they're told/taught to do. We had several seniors in our playoff game this year that were overhead talking in the locker room saying, "Man, if we win tonight we have to practice for another whole week." Those kids went out and played like dog vomit. I don't know how you can pin that on the coaches.
The other side of it is if you say every loss is our fault you're basically elevating the coaching above the players. So if we win a game it's not because the kids played great it's because we're such awesome coaches that we prepared you to the point that the other team couldn't beat you?
There's times that a loss is the fault of the coaches. There are also times it's the fault of the players.
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Post by mariner42 on Feb 15, 2017 15:23:21 GMT -6
"We are our own worst enemy" If you are saying it is the players fault because of mistakes, errors, loafs, etc, you're probably right.
"You lost this game, not me" If you're saying the players lost because it couldn't have been you, well, pull your head out of your a$$.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 15, 2017 15:36:11 GMT -6
All I know is that when the Patriots lose, without fail you hear "we have to coach them better" from Bill Belichick. And given how many times sideline mics have picked him up saying similar things in the heat of the moment, I'm reasonably confident he means it.
I have never won a game - the kids go out and win games. The kids have never lost a game - I didn't prepare them well enough to win. That doesn't mean I'm a bad coach, I'm allowed to make mistakes too. But bottom line - I didn't teach them well enough, I didn't get it through to them, or I didn't put the right kid in the right place to succeed. It's 100% on me.
And if there is a significant talent mismatch, that's nobody's "fault", no blame to pass out there...
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Post by carookie on Feb 15, 2017 15:48:15 GMT -6
Depension how it is said. I don't think you say "we lost cause you stink." But if you show them on film the DT didn't squeeze, 5 fumbles, poor technique. I agree with this, you show the kids why you lost and then use your practice time to fix those things. At the end of the day, players play and coaches coach. It's your job to put them in position to make a play but it's up to them to make it. But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it.
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Post by bigmoot on Feb 15, 2017 15:51:22 GMT -6
I agree with this, you show the kids why you lost and then use your practice time to fix those things. At the end of the day, players play and coaches coach. It's your job to put them in position to make a play but it's up to them to make it. But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. So by that logic the players are never at fault. Any mistake made by a player ultimately comes back to the coach didn't prepare them well enough.
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Post by hsrose on Feb 15, 2017 16:01:38 GMT -6
One of the coaches here openly calls the players, regardless of sport he's coaching, stupid and dumb and unable to comprehend basic concepts. Been here along time and blames everything on how stupid the players are. Not pleasant to be on a staff with him. Was in the box with him and Johnny fumbles. Papers get tossed, heavy sigh, head in the hands, and the "See, he's just too stupid to hang onto the ball." He's pretty much given up on athletics here because the athletes just can't understand what needs to be done. Over the years, according to him, he's tried every trick, skill, drill, presentation method, being nice, being an a$$hole, playbooks, no playbooks, everything, and nothing has worked. So it must be the athletes.
What's that quote - if it was something good they did it, if it's something bad it's my fault...
How do you combat the coach that, privately, says that the players aren't smart/good enough to do this play, but then has no issues with adding more to the playlist? I take stuff out if they can't get it and then work on the smaller set until they do. A lot of coaches seem to think that we can't execute this play because Johnny (just like his older brother, and his father...) can't understand the simplest of concepts, so we'll add yet another concept that builds on the concept/technique/skill he is too dumb to understand.
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coachwscott
Freshmen Member
"Play like a Champion Today"
Posts: 60
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Post by coachwscott on Feb 15, 2017 16:02:49 GMT -6
If you have ever lost and not thought of how could we as a staff could have better prepared our athletes, I'm really at a loss of why you would be in coaching in the first place. Yes talent can dictate the score regardless of scheme or planning. But shouldn't it also be our job as coaches to feed the whole individual, not just the athlete. I believe this game is a great platform to teach young men a multitude of valuable lessons about life, friends and family. The greatest victories I've had in 17yrs of doing this had a lot more to do with holding a former players newborn or watching them get married, etc.. That being said, I'm a bit old school. What the team does on the field on game day is a reflection of what you value at practice. Yes we all want to win, but I'll proudly stand by young men that know they are outmatched and get back up anyway to serve their brothers.
***steps off soap box***
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Post by carookie on Feb 15, 2017 16:03:40 GMT -6
But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. So by that logic the players are never at fault. Any mistake made by a player ultimately comes back to the coach didn't prepare them well enough. To an extent, YES. But I think we are confusing the words Fault with Responsibility. Everything does come back to us, save for those things that I previously mentioned where players are grossly overmatched, however those things were not mentioned. If a player fails to execute a technique or perform an assignment then yes the coach did not prepare him well enough. As a coach (especially the HC) you are RESPONSIBLE for all the actions your players perform on the field. Now, as I feel is being implied, that does not mean we do not hold players accountable- we ALWAYS hold players accountable. What it does mean though, is that we also hold ourselves accountable, we do not pass the buck because how a player performs is our RESPONSIBILITY.
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Post by brophy on Feb 15, 2017 16:06:32 GMT -6
But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. So by that logic the players are never at fault. Any mistake made by a player ultimately comes back to the coach didn't prepare them well enough. I agree that coaching is all about being accountable for player performance. Completely. Unfortunately, it doesn't account for the makeup of a particular player, as a human being, which a coach, as dedicated as he may be, cannot alter/modify/account for 17 years of upbringing. A guy may be a great athlete, he may be the best at his position, he may be the best at executing his assignment.....but, he may have moments of weakness and {censored} the bed either due to maturity or indoctrinated selfishness that he was raised on and lets the team down.
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Post by newt21 on Feb 15, 2017 16:10:35 GMT -6
I agree with this, you show the kids why you lost and then use your practice time to fix those things. At the end of the day, players play and coaches coach. It's your job to put them in position to make a play but it's up to them to make it. But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. Yes and no. I'm a believer in "what you allow, you encourage" but I also believe that "you can take a horse to water, you but you can't make them drink it". Coachability is a real thing whether you want to admit it or not and that's what it boils down to sometimes. When you have two formations, right and left, and it's the 5th game of the year and a kid still can't line up correctly in his one position he's been asked to learn, I find it hard to believe that's a coaching problem.
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Post by coachaj623 on Feb 15, 2017 16:12:19 GMT -6
Tough spot... Personally I'd never blame the kids for a loss to an admin. I'll always blame myself. I will do the best I can to find what is wrong & fix it. Have to put the kids in best position to win. That falls on the coach.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 15, 2017 16:12:20 GMT -6
There are times when people need to realize that it's our job to teach the game and get the kids motivated to play. But, it's the players' job to actually go out and perform. I have never openly blamed a group of kids for a loss but that doesn't mean that it doesn't fall square on their shoulders at times.
Our girls basketball team is struggling in a big way this year and the HC is a buddy of mine. We chat about the losses each week and the reality is simple: the girls fall apart when game time rolls around. I do their strength and conditioning so I'm at their practices all week long. I watch him and his staff run a tight practice schedule that emphasizes fundamentals and simple schemes. They put the girls in competitive/worst case scenarios that forces them out of their comfort zone. He and the staff are very patient with the girls, correct their mistakes and try to develop as much intrinsic motivation with the players as possible.
But, come game time, all of that goes out the window. They turn the ball over, they don't box out or rebound, they can't a shot to save their life (from the field or the foul line), their ball handling skills are crap and they miss lay-ups constantly. Again, the staff stays very calm, patient and positive with them even when it's flat-out embarrassing to be on the sideline.. Now, here's the kicker: they play their best games against non-conference teams or against teams they're sure they can't beat. They play their worst games against the teams in the conference that they match-up well against and "should beat". It's a straight sport psychology issue with them: they cannot find a reason to play the game outside of the scoreboard. This has been emphasized with them REPEATEDLY. We all tell them to go out, play hard, and enjoy the game. It just doesn't happen.
So, do they openly blame the kids for the loss? Absolutely not. The coaches talk about what they can fix and what they'll work on at practice and that's it. However, there isn't much you can do with a group of kids that refuse to handle the pressure of competition. You keep hammering away at practice and hope it sticks. That's all you can do.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 15, 2017 16:19:02 GMT -6
I agree with this, you show the kids why you lost and then use your practice time to fix those things. At the end of the day, players play and coaches coach. It's your job to put them in position to make a play but it's up to them to make it. But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. Is it the coach's fault when he has have spent 10-15 minutes every day running block down/step down drills with the kids, emphasize it during inside run and then watched them do it well during team time? Is the RB coach to blame when the RBs cough the ball up five times in a game after he goes through ball security drills each and every day, impresses the importance of it on the kids all day long and the ball doesn't hit the ground all week? As I stated earlier, we never openly blame the kids for a loss. But, that doesn't mean I won't call out those DTs for not squeezing when they have gotten turns at it or those RBs for turning the ball over when they've been coached up. We'll go back to the drawing board and continue to rep it at practice. BUT, the kids have to make it happen. We can't do it for them.
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 408
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Post by SconnieOC on Feb 15, 2017 16:26:18 GMT -6
I'm playing devil's advocate here a little bit.. But anytime anyone brings up a scheme question, or an offensive/defensive system, or all these talks about speakers at clinics.. there's a WHOLE lot of complaining about Jimmies and Joes... We can't do that because we don't have the guys...
I'm in the boat that coaches should accept responsibility for losses, and especially shouldn't openly blame players to anyone.. but in your staff room, be honest with yourself.. I bet 95% of the guys on here have at least once, said "If johnny hadn't thrown that pick" or "if Billy hadn't missed that tackle" we'd have won the game.
As coaches, it's our jobs to get them them ready to execute and perform, but in all reality, at some point, players win and lose games. As previously stated but watered down, if you give Belichek an average team in any league(HS ball), with average players, they still aren't going to be dominant. At some point, as coaches, it's ok to be honest that sometimes.. it comes down to players executing. Your QB might have made that throw 100 times, and 5 times that game, but the one time, he doesn't.
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Post by carookie on Feb 15, 2017 16:41:56 GMT -6
But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. Is it the coach's fault when he has have spent 10-15 minutes every day running block down/step down drills with the kids, emphasize it during inside run and then watched them do it well during team time? Is the RB coach to blame when the RBs cough the ball up five times in a game after he goes through ball security drills each and every day, impresses the importance of it on the kids all day long and the ball doesn't hit the ground all week? As I stated earlier, we never openly blame the kids for a loss. But, that doesn't mean I won't call out those DTs for not squeezing when they have gotten turns at it or those RBs for turning the ball over when they've been coached up. We'll go back to the drawing board and continue to rep it at practice. BUT, the kids have to make it happen. We can't do it for them. If a coach spent 10-15 trying to teach something to a player, and the player is capable of executing it, but the player does not do it. Then I would definitely say there is significant fault resting with the coach. Just because he spent time working on something doesnt mean he coached it well. Maybe he needs to change how he is coaching. Time spent does not always equal good coaching. And I would never expect you not to call out your DT for not squeezing, you do need to keep him accountable and calling him out would help do so. However, just putting more time and continually repping in practice may not be the answer (we all know the definition of insanity). If he is consistently not executing what you believe you have coached him to do then it is your responsibility to coach him differently/better.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 15, 2017 16:47:37 GMT -6
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Post by carookie on Feb 15, 2017 16:50:13 GMT -6
But isnt it also your job to teach them HOW to make the plays? If a kid uses poor technique, then you didnt coach him well enough on how to use techniques, if the DT didnt squeeze, you didn't coach him well enough to squeeze. Whatever they do, you either coach it or you allow it. Yes and no. I'm a believer in "what you allow, you encourage" but I also believe that "you can take a horse to water, you but you can't make them drink it". Coachability is a real thing whether you want to admit it or not and that's what it boils down to sometimes. When you have two formations, right and left, and it's the 5th game of the year and a kid still can't line up correctly in his one position he's been asked to learn, I find it hard to believe that's a coaching problem. If that example is truly the case, then that takes me to the first point of the player not being capable (ie my JV team vs the Patriots example). I have coached severely mentally handicapped players before, no matter how good the coaching was nobody would be able to get that player to execute certain things. All players have certain limitations (physical and mental) if the player is limited in their 'coachability' then that is a limitation they cannot overcome. If a kid lacked the mental capacity to line up then that is his limitation. I will write though, that lots of times coaches lean on this (players natural limitation) as crutches without actually pushing the player to that limit. And FWIW, I didn't think your post imposed implied you would publicly blame a player.
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Post by blb on Feb 15, 2017 17:16:54 GMT -6
Do not ever publicly blame HS players for a loss.
Always take responsibility - you're going to get it anyway.
Give credit to the victors instead.
Next week go back to teaching-coaching-correcting those things that caused the result to be other than you wanted.
The fact is sometimes we cannot determine whether we win or lose, just how.
And some years we have to coach our azzes off just to keep from getting killed.
As far as what groundchuck (OP) posted - I have to wonder what principal's motivation was for calling him in-asking him that.
Unless chuck is the AD responsible for evaluating the Basketball coach - personally I would not have got involved.
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Post by Coach Vint on Feb 15, 2017 17:27:58 GMT -6
Chuck Noll once said at a clinic that he would never publicly say anything negative about a player. You praise in public, your correct in private. There is a reason he was a successful coach. I once had a neighbor who played for Lombardi. He said Lombardi was so good because he would coach you hard, but he would never demean you or embarrass a player.
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Post by fantom on Feb 15, 2017 17:34:19 GMT -6
Obviously, you never blame the players publicly. In the locker room it depends how it's said. Angrily berating the team after a loss is a bad idea. In fact, the less said immediately after a bad loss the better, especially if you're angry. The next time that you meet as a team, whether that's Saturday morning or on Monday, I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that we'd lost the game because we made too many mistakes. I'm talking about avoidable mistakes-bad penalties, turnovers-and poor effort, not losing because they had better players. Ranting and getting personal aren't helpful but there's nothing wrong with telling them that you can't win that way.
I'm also curious how the b-ball coach had talked to the team, how it came to the principal's attention, and why he told the football coach.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Feb 15, 2017 18:18:24 GMT -6
Coaches get saddled with the loss. Players earned the win.
Is that accurate? Of course not. But, there is a difference between not having the horses, and those horses completely dropping the ball (literally and metaphorically), and those horses just not doing what they were taught.
If you're in this long enough, you'll have all 3 of those situations happen.
Do I blame the kids, in public? No. But, will I not hesitate to make sure the kids are aware of the cost of their actions? Oh yeah, I think those are great teaching moments.
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 15, 2017 18:47:05 GMT -6
I would never say anything negative outside the locker room/meeting room or team huddle. But I have told good teams with older players that "these things" got us beat, and those things are entirely in their control. I told them we have drilled those things and emphasized those things but until they execute those fundamentals they way they are taught the end result will be the same.
I could do this because I had a relationship with them, they knew I cared. I could do this because they were older and more mature. If you have freshmen that's tough. If you do it in such a way that it is surgical not a rant I think nit sinks in more. It's not that the coach is pissed (even though he might be). It's the coach is trying to show us this one is our fault because we didn't take practice seriously on Thursday, and we missed assignments and acted like we didn't care.
TO an earlier post who said it is the coaches fault.......believe me I rip myself harder than anyone. I rarely turn the finger on anyone other than myself. But there does get a be a point when the players are responsible.
I am that way in the classroom too. If a lot of kids fail a test I ask myself what did I do wrong? How can I reteach this so we do better? But if a kid who never does his homework and only answered half the questions failed and this is a routine thing for him I don't eat myself up over it.
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Post by lochness on Feb 15, 2017 22:51:44 GMT -6
Do you ever blame a team or players for a loss? Not publicly, no.
Do I believe the {censored} that everything bad that happens with a football team is the coach's fault? No. That's absolute crap. Sometimes kids are uncoachable assbags, and they're all that coach has that particular year. All this bravado and self-importance around how much the coaches control and influence every aspect of the game is totally bogus. I've known GREAT high school coaches who have had bad teams and down years. I'll tell you this much: it ain't because they were "letting it happen."
I know now it's supposed to come of as manly martyrdom to say "if it happened it's our fault" but I don't view it that way. I view it as a very ego-centric and flawed smokescreen.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 16, 2017 8:20:45 GMT -6
I'm playing devil's advocate here a little bit.. But anytime anyone brings up a scheme question, or an offensive/defensive system, or all these talks about speakers at clinics.. there's a WHOLE lot of complaining about Jimmies and Joes... We can't do that because we don't have the guys... I'm in the boat that coaches should accept responsibility for losses, and especially shouldn't openly blame players to anyone.. but in your staff room, be honest with yourself.. I bet 95% of the guys on here have at least once, said "If johnny hadn't thrown that pick" or "if Billy hadn't missed that tackle" we'd have won the game. As coaches, it's our jobs to get them them ready to execute and perform, but in all reality, at some point, players win and lose games. As previously stated but watered down, if you give Belichek an average team in any league(HS ball), with average players, they still aren't going to be dominant. At some point, as coaches, it's ok to be honest that sometimes.. it comes down to players executing. Your QB might have made that throw 100 times, and 5 times that game, but the one time, he doesn't. Agree with all this. And the fact that I would never ever say publicly or to the team "So and So lost that game for us". But...I can think of two games off the top of my head where yes a kid lost us the game due to them not doing what they were coached to do or just choking when the pressure was on. It happens. Hell I feel like I made a huge mistake in our second round playoff game that was a huge factor in us not having a chance to win. I made a mistake. Kids make mistakes. Now again I am not blaming them or would say it outside of the coaches office but kids lose games. Probably not answering the question in the OP but again don't fool yourself sometimes the players are to blame just as the coaches are.
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