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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 17:30:50 GMT -6
Been discussing this w/some colleagues for awhile now and want to drum this back up on here. The topic I've been discussing w/the guys I'm talking to is a small school scenario, with anywhere from say 40-50 kids in the entire program (includes JV and varsity). How would you go about implementing a 2 platoon, or modified 2 platoon system? What's the minimum number the roster has to get down to in order to abandon the 2 platoon model? What about modified 2 platoon (i.e. where kids still play both ways but players are labeled as defense 1st offense 2nd and vice versa)?
Duece
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Post by mattharris75 on Jan 28, 2019 20:13:51 GMT -6
We've been two platoon the last two years. This year our roster, 9th-12th, was 43 kids. I was initially skeptical due to numbers, but it's been huge for us. Our kids are fresher than our opponents late in games, and we are able to out execute other teams and develop our players better than ever before, because of the additional reps and time to focus on fundamentals.
In 2016 we averaged scoring 19.9 points per game. In 2017, our first season two platooning, we averaged 31.5 ppg, and in 2018 44.8 ppg, leading the state in scoring in our classification. Now obviously there are a number of factors involved, but those I listed above, relating to two platooning, were certainly big factors.
Also, we got rid of JV entirely. Any ninth graders that weren't physically ready to at least be a second string guy played down with the junior high team. They were with us in the pre-season, went to games with us (and most still managed to get in some snaps here and there in blow out varsity games), and came back up to varsity full-time after the junior high season was over.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 28, 2019 20:45:00 GMT -6
Two platoon is about how your best 24 players match up with your opponents best 14-15.
***Even as a DB coach in levels that have 60-100+ players, I have ended up with the rejects of WRs, QBs, RBs, etc.... I told them that this was the last stop on the interstate and if they will do what I coach them, then they can play.***
I have always felt like that if I can take a kid that is an 85 skill set and get him to play as close to that 85 by being able to coach him for 2 hours a day and he only has to play 60 snaps, that the 85 kid will be a better player over the course of a game than the 95 skill set kid that has to play 120 snaps and I only get him for half of the practice time.
The 95 kid might be better on one particular play, but the game of football isn't a single play matchup.
Plus with the extra practice time, you can be a whole lot fancier with what you do with those kids.... if you want to do that.
When I did small school ball and tried to work to be two platoon, the biggest hurdle was convincing kids to just play/focus on one side of the ball. Most of the good kids were so used to being on the field all the time that they couldn't see the benefit.
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Post by Old Pro on Jan 28, 2019 22:13:34 GMT -6
Two platoon is about how your best 24 players match up with your opponents best 14-15. ***Even as a DB coach in levels that have 60-100+ players, I have ended up with the rejects of WRs, QBs, RBs, etc.... I told them that this was the last stop on the interstate and if they will do what I coach them, then they can play.*** I have always felt like that if I can take a kid that is an 85 skill set and get him to play as close to that 85 by being able to coach him for 2 hours a day and he only has to play 60 snaps, that the 85 kid will be a better player over the course of a game than the 95 skill set kid that has to play 120 snaps and I only get him for half of the practice time. The 95 kid might be better on one particular play, but the game of football isn't a single play matchup. Plus with the extra practice time, you can be a whole lot fancier with what you do with those kids.... if you want to do that. When I did small school ball and tried to work to be two platoon, the biggest hurdle was convincing kids to just play/focus on one side of the ball. Most of the good kids were so used to being on the field all the time that they couldn't see the benefit. And the good kids parents are NOT fans of two platoon either
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Post by tigerpride on Jan 29, 2019 5:53:31 GMT -6
I see alot of 6'3 DEs or OLBs and thank God the opposing coach only plays him on D. I would hate to see that same kid playing TE.
It only makes sense to have ur best on the field. Thays what we do and it works for us.
The program down the way has a TE going to notre dame. Be also plays LB and does not come off the field. They also have a D1 WR who plays OLB. They have 5-6 other players going both ways and went 29-1 the past2 yrs.
We would have a better match up if they 2 platooned.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 6:27:27 GMT -6
Not a fan, I think 1 platoon forces you to do less, lets them get better at it and gives kids exposure on both sides of the ball.
Last 2 years we were 2 squad, our best backs were also our safeties, IMO they shouldve been getting 20-30 carries a game, but they only knew 1-2 plays, due to us being a 2 team
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 7:01:04 GMT -6
I see alot of 6'3 DEs or OLBs and thank God the opposing coach only plays him on D. I would hate to see that same kid playing TE. It only makes sense to have ur best on the field. Thays what we do and it works for us. The program down the way has a TE going to notre dame. Be also plays LB and does not come off the field. They also have a D1 WR who plays OLB. They have 5-6 other players going both ways and went 29-1 the past2 yrs. We would have a better match up if they 2 platooned. So you are advocating for NOT 2 platooning correct? Duece
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Post by canesfan on Jan 29, 2019 7:36:45 GMT -6
We could possibly two platoon this year but I’d rather have multiple personnel packages and get good at a few things. I know we could two platoon everywhere but DB but I’d rather have a lot of depth and try to wear people down that way.
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Post by bluboy on Jan 29, 2019 8:46:13 GMT -6
In a perfect world, we would 2-platoon. Since we don't live in a perfect world, we play our best football players on both sides of the ball. Positions where we have "average" players, players are platooned. Overall, we take coachwoodall's approach of developing the "85 skill-set" kids so they can go into a game and give a starter a break. IMO, it's about developing players (identifying players who can go into game to give starter a break), coaching them and giving them reps in practice.
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Post by sweep26 on Jan 29, 2019 9:23:09 GMT -6
Theoretically 2-platooning is the ideal way to go in program organization.
If you are in a small school situation and you are considering going to a 2-platoon system, I would suggest that you begin by answering this question..."Do we have enough quality coaches to pull this off?"
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Jan 29, 2019 9:43:56 GMT -6
We don't two-platoon, but even at the small school I'm at now with a roster of 44 kids, I would give this serious consideration:
1.) Choose your QB
2.) Best 11 left, are primary defensive guys (defensive starters, offensive depth)
3.) Next 11, are primary offensive guys (offensive starters, defensive depth)
We use a "series chart" to control subs. So Series 1 offense has different guys than Series 2, which has different guys than Series 3, etc. We have 4 series total. So for this, I would give "depth" guys a max of two series on their "secondary" side of the ball. So now that stud 3-tech that you'd like to play on the OL isn't just trapped into being only a 3-tech. Players still practice both sides, but know that they primarily only play one side of the ball.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 9:50:10 GMT -6
We don't two-platoon, but even at the small school I'm at now with a roster of 44 kids, I would give this serious consideration: 1.) Choose your QB 2.) Best 11 left, are primary defensive guys (defensive starters, offensive depth) 3.) Next 11, are primary offensive guys (offensive starters, defensive depth) We use a "series chart" to control subs. So Series 1 offense has different guys than Series 2, which has different guys than Series 3, etc. We have 4 series total. So for this, I would give "depth" guys a max of two series on their "secondary" side of the ball. So now that stud 3-tech that you'd like to play on the OL isn't just trapped into being only a 3-tech. Players still practice both sides, but know that they primarily only play one side of the ball. I've gone with a modified version of this. Here is my checklist. 1. Choose your QB, 1 OL, 1 Skill 2. Best 11 for defense 3. Fill out the offense
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Post by coachcb on Jan 29, 2019 9:55:35 GMT -6
IMO, it just comes down to the Jimmies and Joes you have on the squad. I've coached in two-platoon systems at two large programs (2000+ kids in the school). Here's a break-down of how each situation went:
School A: 95 kids out, 8 coaches on staff, platonning didn't work well for us. We had 5-6 starters that should have been going both ways. The extra hour+ of coaching each day couldn't make up for their lack of physical ability. The offense and the defense were split even;y according to talent but we had glaring holes in talent on both sides of the ball. Our weight room numbers were poor at the time and we just didn't 22-24 guys that couldn't get it done. With out best 11 out there, we were probably a 6-4 team. Without platooning, we were a 3-7 team.
School B: 110 kids out, 8 coaches on staff and platooning was excellent. Weight room numbers were high and all 22-24 kids could get the job done well. We did have several stud WRs/DBs who went both ways and a LB who played some h-back for us. Those two WRs were game changers that were smart enough to learn both sides of the ball with ease. We needed a big, physical kid in our H-back package but his skill set was pretty limited so he spent most of the time on defense.
I've seen platooning work in small school situations. Talent-wise, the teams had about 15-18 kids that could start for anyone in the conference without the extra coaching. The rest of the starters were kids that benefited from the extra coaching and could get the job done on the field.
With that being said, I've been coaching at a small school the last twp years (40-50 kids, 9-12) and I don't think there was anyway we could platoon. We usually had one-two kids on the field that we had to hide or game plan around. But, that is simply due to our weight training program: we need to get numbers up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 10:19:00 GMT -6
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 29, 2019 11:38:17 GMT -6
forgot all about that one
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Post by tigerpride on Jan 29, 2019 18:09:01 GMT -6
I see alot of 6'3 DEs or OLBs and thank God the opposing coach only plays him on D. I would hate to see that same kid playing TE. It only makes sense to have ur best on the field. Thays what we do and it works for us. The program down the way has a TE going to notre dame. Be also plays LB and does not come off the field. They also have a D1 WR who plays OLB. They have 5-6 other players going both ways and went 29-1 the past2 yrs. We would have a better match up if they 2 platooned. So you are advocating for NOT 2 platooning correct? Duece I would not as a program philosophy. All kids in Our program learn O and D. We definitley have kids that will specialize and eventually only play on one side. We put our best 11 on the field. Now early on its difficult for a kid to not come off the field. Hes just not ready or in Shape. Most of them get there as the weather breaks. We try to keep that 2 way starter on the field 100% defensively and give them rest on offense as we see fit. We are traditionally a 500 program and our numbers have been down. In 2014, we had 8-9 kids play both ways, stay healthy and get us to the state finals. No way we make it that far by 2 platooning. Our qb played only qb. As i said, the team down the road has beaten some TOP ohio and indiana teams playing most of their kids both ways. Yes its difficult to make adjustments during the game but we do have qualit practices and can fet back ups plenty of reps. I do not know what its like to have 100 kids on the roster. I dont know what its like to have tons of competition at several positions. We do what we have to do irn order to be as competitove as possible. I just sometimes wonder how a spread team doesnt utilize their defensive studs in goal line and short yardage situations. Would not take a whole lot of time to put in some TE sets or 2 back sets with some of those def guys that sit for half the game
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 18:39:28 GMT -6
Very interesting takes on this. We are 2 platoon and I'm pretty sure we wouldn't do as good as we do going both ways. We win a lot of games in the 4th quarter because we are fresher than our opponents. We actually best people we shouldn't for this very reason. The other reason we get better in the 2nd half is at halftime we are teaching adjustments to just 1 group instead of splitting the time.
Our numbers defensively were as follows. We had 6 defensive lineman 5 linebackers and probably 10 DBS. A couple of the DBS could double as linebackers but for the most part everyone played within their groups. Now I'll say this within our groups there is some cross training. In other words our DEs know how to play tackle and tackles know how to play end. The linebackers learn all 3 spots and the same is true for the secondary. This helps a lot for when there are injuries.
Duece
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Post by canesfan on Jan 29, 2019 19:41:59 GMT -6
We don't two-platoon, but even at the small school I'm at now with a roster of 44 kids, I would give this serious consideration: 1.) Choose your QB 2.) Best 11 left, are primary defensive guys (defensive starters, offensive depth) 3.) Next 11, are primary offensive guys (offensive starters, defensive depth) We use a "series chart" to control subs. So Series 1 offense has different guys than Series 2, which has different guys than Series 3, etc. We have 4 series total. So for this, I would give "depth" guys a max of two series on their "secondary" side of the ball. So now that stud 3-tech that you'd like to play on the OL isn't just trapped into being only a 3-tech. Players still practice both sides, but know that they primarily only play one side of the ball. I've gone with a modified version of this. Here is my checklist. 1. Choose your QB, 1 OL, 1 Skill 2. Best 11 for defense 3. Fill out the offense Can you score like that? I’m a defensive guy but not being able to score points offensively sucks!
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Jan 29, 2019 20:12:27 GMT -6
I've gone with a modified version of this. Here is my checklist. 1. Choose your QB, 1 OL, 1 Skill 2. Best 11 for defense 3. Fill out the offense Can you score like that? I’m a defensive guy but not being able to score points offensively sucks! My friend coachrush is a double winger. He and I are fine winning a game 14-13 haha
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Post by mattharris75 on Jan 29, 2019 20:28:32 GMT -6
I've gone with a modified version of this. Here is my checklist. 1. Choose your QB, 1 OL, 1 Skill 2. Best 11 for defense 3. Fill out the offense Can you score like that? I’m a defensive guy but not being able to score points offensively sucks! Yep, we led the state in scoring using this same 'draft' system.
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Post by agap on Jan 29, 2019 21:03:36 GMT -6
I see alot of 6'3 DEs or OLBs and thank God the opposing coach only plays him on D. I would hate to see that same kid playing TE. It only makes sense to have ur best on the field. Thays what we do and it works for us. The program down the way has a TE going to notre dame. Be also plays LB and does not come off the field. They also have a D1 WR who plays OLB. They have 5-6 other players going both ways and went 29-1 the past2 yrs. We would have a better match up if they 2 platooned. It depends how you two platoon. I know a lot of programs that two platoon but they have always had a couple players play both ways. Some programs that two platoon will also play their best players both ways once they get into playoffs or in certain situations. Those programs will have their players practice both sides of the ball each week, but they practice their primary position a lot more. There's a program not far from here that has two platooned for about 20 years. They have won 4 or 5 state titles and have lost in the state championship a few times. They might have had 1-2 players play both ways each season, but that was it. They had some players play D1 and a couple ended up in the NFL, but those players never played both ways.
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Post by canesfan on Jan 29, 2019 22:14:42 GMT -6
Can you score like that? I’m a defensive guy but not being able to score points offensively sucks! Yep, we led the state in scoring using this same 'draft' system. Great! We’d be in a world of hurt!
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Post by somecoach on Jan 29, 2019 22:44:08 GMT -6
Some ideas we have had success with:
-at the JV level we have started camp going one platoon and see who fits where by the end of day 4, In which the OC and DC will have a quasi draft.
-#1 thing is considering offensive scheme. Most offenses usually hang their hats on feeding the ball to 2-3 players, one of which is the tailback. Thus, the other 3-4 guys can be role players.
Imo my 2-3 guys are the Qb, tailback, and BEST receiver The rest go to the defense. Could my best 2 defensive players give me a “monster offense”? Yes. But how many times are they really getting the ball?
Twice, maybe 3x a game?
I rather them be we’ll rested while filler players can suffice
-as a spread team we always wind up having a “glut” when we one platoon. It’s really hard to coach when you literally have 24 kids for 4 spots. It’s wasting reps having a 6th string Z get reps who doesn’t have a prayer of seeing the field.
When we 2 platoon he could be the 3rd string corner and get some what meaningful reps.
With that being said, offense gets the star receiver, defense gets the 4 best dbs and we split the rest based on ability. We usually catch a diamond in the rough who can be a serviceble #2 receiver.
-as for lineman in some years we have had them go both ways in practice but give them a ” primary” position. They will all be cross trained but will focus on getting reps at their primary position. I like to keep the offensive line as one cohesive unit, I feel like d-like can be more “plug-in friendly”. But with this system when there is an injury at the offensive line we usually have a serviceable fill-in
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 30, 2019 7:15:52 GMT -6
somecoach just reminded me, another great advantage of the two platoon; that kids (at least theoretically) are not the far down the depth chart 2 platoon 44 players 2 deep This helps with participation rates
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 8:11:41 GMT -6
Been discussing this w/some colleagues for awhile now and want to drum this back up on here. The topic I've been discussing w/the guys I'm talking to is a small school scenario, with anywhere from say 40-50 kids in the entire program (includes JV and varsity). How would you go about implementing a 2 platoon, or modified 2 platoon system? What's the minimum number the roster has to get down to in order to abandon the 2 platoon model? What about modified 2 platoon (i.e. where kids still play both ways but players are labeled as defense 1st offense 2nd and vice versa)? Duece At a small school it can be nearly impossible to find 22 kids who can each competently play a varsity position. Sometimes you don't even have 11. I feel like you need at least 18 good, competent varsity starting calibre players before you can really think about 2 platooning, and that includes "hiding" a couple of less-than-competent players on each side. So the ideal "modified" 2 platoon system is to pick out 1-3 players on each side that you are going to build the offense around: a QB, C, and 1 skill player on offense and a DL, LB, and DB on defense. I specifically think the C needs to be a 1 way player because I personally never want to lose a game again due to bad snaps from a 4th string C. From there, try to fill in the remaining 8 slots with as many 1 way players as posisble--ideally you can 2 platoon your lines, because a lot of times those kids will take plays off and get you beat when they're tired. Then you need to work out a rotation plan for the 2 way players you've got left to give them a rest on offense at times, even if it means your offensive unit is a little less than full strength at times because of it. Everybody plays special teams. As far as coaches, ideally you have 4-6 good coaches who can concentrate on a position and do a true 2 platoon practice, but at a small school that (and the numbers for a true 2 platoon practice) are usually a pipe dream. You're going to wind up with 3-5 coaches pulling double duty while all the players still learn an offensive and a defensive position and you run practice like a 1 platoon team would, but just play the kids less on one side of the ball or the other in games. You will be getting more kids in games, which you'd think would help keep complaints about playing time down, but the parents of your studs who are now only playing 1 way will start griping about playing time and how not playing "the best" the whole game is hurting your team.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 8:22:29 GMT -6
I've gone with a modified version of this. Here is my checklist. 1. Choose your QB, 1 OL, 1 Skill 2. Best 11 for defense 3. Fill out the offense This is the version we used at a larger school I coached at. It worked well.
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Post by pvogel on Jan 30, 2019 8:51:04 GMT -6
Lots of great ideas. I am very mixed on all of this. I get that you need the best players on the field and sometimes the disparity is far too great physically between your kids. But 2 platooning can be an absolutely insane advantage. There is a reason Colleges and Pros do it. Ndamukong Suh would be an absolute terror at Guard... but its just not worth it.
I will also say that playing kids both ways "for exposure" only works if they aren't worn out... tired kids don't look full speed on film and don't stand out the same way that they would if all of their plays are at 100% and full speed.
I am buying into Paul Golla's (Bakersfield HS) model. The OL play OL and that is it. And then everyone else plays both ways. It allows the athletes to be all over the field (and you can sub them in and out) and the OL gets the benefit that they would from 2 platooning - additional practice time and focus with their own specific coach (who should be one of the best on staff). But I am also leaning towards this because of the numbers and landscape that is changing. Big kids aren't coming out anymore. Very difficult to find 10 big men in a program.
But in a perfect world...heck yes I would 2 platoon. And on the rare occasion that you get that 5* freak that is an absolute war daddy AND can handle 2 positions MENTALLY then sure... go ahead and rotate that one guy in on both sides for certain situations.
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Post by fshamrock on Jan 30, 2019 8:53:47 GMT -6
I think if you're a spread team it should look like this: QB Runningback Best WR
defense
everybody else goes to offense and gets coached up
The problem you run into when you 2 platoon is issues of depth. I know technically you're backups are getting way more coaching than they would be in an ironman system, but sometimes your backups just aren't good enough athletes to be on the field. They could have Lombardi coaching them for 67 segments a day and they'd still have two left feet.
I think you can get around this by having a few personnel packages that you practice a little every week. Maybe you call it "dime" and bring that best WR over to play CB, or call it "lightning" and the two safeties come over to offense and run a few concepts. Gives you a little flexibility and at least your good athletes on the other side of the ball have been exposed to a little bit of how the other half lives in case you need them. Again this would only be select kids. A team that beat us this year and went on the state semi's brought in 3 starting WR's to play DB on every third and long. I don't know if I'd be that drastic but it worked for them.
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Post by spillnkill on Jan 30, 2019 14:33:07 GMT -6
Side question to all of this. Two platooned before and obviously had the best 11 play other years as well.
Is there more benefit in a modified version such as:
One Way: QB OL DL
Rotation Two Way Players at the skill positions. Creating different packages for that FB(HBack)/LB kid that will allow them to only have to learn 2 or 3 plays rather than the full system and keep their reps near 100% on defense.
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Post by somecoach on Jan 30, 2019 15:57:06 GMT -6
Side question to all of this. Two platooned before and obviously had the best 11 play other years as well. Is there more benefit in a modified version such as: One Way: QB OL DL Rotation Two Way Players at the skill positions. Creating different packages for that FB(HBack)/LB kid that will allow them to only have to learn 2 or 3 plays rather than the full system and keep their reps near 100% on defense. Not a bad idea as long as you have the practice time for it. I’ve done it in a special situation I.e. goaline where we bring in the big hogs to literally push the pile.
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