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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2006 9:27:48 GMT -6
What are ways that you use multiple formations or motions or shifting to give DEFENSES problems (or what do teams do against you to frustrate your defense)?
For instance,
Trading a tight end after the defense sets their front.
Or trading the tight end to bring the safety across the formation, then motioning a back out of the backfield to the side the tight end just left to isolate a linebacker...........
Or going from 2x1 to a 2x2 formation, after a defense has set their coverage.
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Post by wildcat on Dec 13, 2006 9:32:52 GMT -6
We forget which kids are in and then don't make substitutions when a kid gets hurt. We forget to go into motion at times. We sometimes cover up a TE on a pass play with a WR. That's how we get formationed to death...  |
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Post by ccscoach on Dec 13, 2006 10:52:08 GMT -6
Our favorite shifts is what we call crunch we line up in red or blue (wing and te one side, se and slot on the other) then we bing the Tackle and TE over to the split end side we put the wing back up on the line and then run a crack toss to the fullback. We usually now have teams out numbered at the point, we run the toss twice then teams usually start to over shift then we end up faking toss and throw to the WB on a delay.....I like this also because it gives us great pass pro when we sprint to trips in the passing game.... We use this any were on the field favorite time to do it is after the big play hurry up call crunch run the toss....I guess it works for us.
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 13, 2006 11:22:24 GMT -6
What are ways that you use multiple formations or motions or shifting to give DEFENSES problems (or what do teams do against you to frustrate your defense)? For instance, Trading a tight end after the defense sets their front. Or trading the tight end to bring the safety across the formation, then motioning a back out of the backfield to the side the tight end just left to isolate a linebacker........... Or going from 2x1 to a 2x2 formation, after a defense has set their coverage. ? The most successful/motions shifts for me have always been ones where we pre-plan a dramatic shift, such as Power-I to empty, or off-set I left to a bunch formation--anything that makes the D like to check at the line, especially when we have a pretty clear idea of one or two things that will likely work. Second, along with above, anything that shifts the formation strength. Trading the TE is so easy I love doing it, along with motioning an H-back. I watched some film the other day where a team kept lining up in 1-back 2TE (H-back off the line). The TE lined up to the left and "Traded" to the right, going inside the H-back, to make it a power Trey formation right. Then the H-back motioned back left and they were back in a balance set, and I'll be damned if they didn't run weak about four times in a row (zone, power, and counter trey) for big plays. Third, it is defense specific. For example, we've played teams who do what the Oklahoma Sooners do, which is flop their corner against twins sets. You'll see me motion to and from twins and trips/closed a lot against that kind of move. Finally, I like simple motions/shifts designed simply to get a good blocking angle or free up a receiver. Sometimes the simplest is the best. |
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Post by djwesp on Dec 13, 2006 13:22:42 GMT -6
The most successful/motions shifts for me have always been ones where we pre-plan a dramatic shift, such as Power-I to empty, or off-set I left to a bunch formation--anything that makes the D like to check at the line, especially when we have a pretty clear idea of one or two things that will likely work. Exactly. On film this year one of our opponents took a long time adjusting to our different formations. That entire game when we came out of the huddle we went into fullhouse. We sprint motioned to our new formation and the team never really had time to adjust. Wasn't Nebraska a few weeks ago the one that did that really elaborate shift which was like a complete syncronized flop of the entire formation in sequence? It was hard to explain but fun to watch. |
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2006 13:36:22 GMT -6
Wasn't Nebraska a few weeks ago the one that did that really elaborate shift which was like a complete syncronized flop of the entire formation in sequence? It was hard to explain but fun to watch. YEAH! That was awesome.......it was the same play (OZ) over and over........just putting it on them (Oklahoma, wasn't it) |
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20x
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Post by 20x on Dec 13, 2006 17:24:09 GMT -6
Nebraska does a lot of elaborate shifting each week. My question as both a season ticket holder and a coach, is if they never run plays from there beginning set, will the defense ever respect the initial alignment? A lot of times the initial formation is so bizarre the defense automatically expects the shift, and with any scouting you can predict how they are going to finish.
Don't get me wrong me I love to shift, and we'll move around especially when the defense flops personel to the strength.
Don't you need to be able to run plays out of the initial formation for the defense to respect it? Or does that not matter.
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20x
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Post by 20x on Dec 13, 2006 17:31:53 GMT -6
I'll throw this out there since we're talking Nebraska. There O-coordinator, Jay Norvell, was talking after the Missouri game, that their main point to their shifting that week was because Missouri was such a high percentage man team. When Nebraska shifted Missouri they would automatically check into zone coverage to prevent the mismatches.
Over the last couple of years I've seen a couple of different approaches to Nebraska's shifts. Oklahoma chased them all over the field and flipped personel, while Texas barely moved and kinda just waited for Nebraska to get the shifting all done.
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Post by groundchuck on Dec 13, 2006 17:32:42 GMT -6
Nebraska--I wonder that same thing too. We played a team this year that did that every single down. They were a running team, mostly wing-t and every snap they would come up in the power I or the String I and then shift. But I can't remember them ever snapping the ball in the initial formation. They also wasted a TON of time during the final minutes of the game trying to drive down during the 2-min. They were shifting from power I to 4-wide sets to throw the ball. They would waste 10 seconds every snap when they should have been in warp speed mode.
We do not shift. We wil motion. We don't shift for some of the reasons wildcat mentioned. Kids get messed up. I know it comes down to reps, and we choose to spend out practice time not repping shifts. Now we do use motion, especially with our flankers to change strength or get him in position to release on a route or make a block, or just as a decoy.
We do not confuse anyone in our league when it comes to formations. We are pretty straight forward.
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2006 17:47:59 GMT -6
Nebraska does a lot of elaborate shifting each week. My question as both a season ticket holder and a coach, is if they never run plays from there beginning set, will the defense ever respect the initial alignment? A lot of times the initial formation is so bizarre the defense automatically expects the shift, and with any scouting you can predict how they are going to finish. Don't get me wrong me I love to shift, and we'll move around especially when the defense flops personel to the strength. Don't you need to be able to run plays out of the initial formation for the defense to respect it? Or does that not matter. Do you suppose that the ANTICIPATION causes insecurity / apprehension on what is REALLY going to happen? Psychologists call this the "Looming Effect" where your brain processes anticipated information (moving stimuli) and tricks you into thinking something is happening that really isn't. To me, this is what running JET is all about (and shifting formation / trades / etc).....the alignments are only half of the torture on the defense. Shoot, if you can do something, anything, to get defenders to SLOW DOWN (make them hesitate their thought process) I think you've gained a leg up as an offense. Same could be said for altered cadences, quick counts, etc......the same mental focus is required for those processes as shifting. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Dec 13, 2006 17:59:24 GMT -6
No one believes me but unless our snap is on first sound we let our backs and ends line up anywhere they want. Then they shift to whatever formation we our going to use. We don't tell them where to line up they can line up anywhere as long as they can shift back to the called formation on time. They really enjoy doing it - even if we would not want our fullback as a slotback there will be many times in presnap that he will start there. If you were a defensive coach and saw another team show a no back you would probably spend time thinking of how to defend it.
We also do this after a score. the linemen and ends have to line up on the three yard line but they can line up anywhere on the line. big splits, swinging gate splits, unbalanced whereever. the wingbacks, holder and kicker can also lineup where ever they want. we have a call to the snapper if someone is uncovered and scored several times this season on the direct snap to the uncovered. We usually shift back and kick but did score everytime our kids called for the direct. If you score four TDs in a game the scout and defensive coach will have four different PAT "gate" formations to prepare for.
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 13, 2006 18:54:08 GMT -6
I think we (my team!) needs to formation more. I like the idea of lining up in a different formation and then shifting into the one called for the play. Since we're a no huddle team it shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for the discussion - I'm going to use it!
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Post by djwesp on Dec 13, 2006 20:44:14 GMT -6
Nebraska does a lot of elaborate shifting each week. My question as both a season ticket holder and a coach, is if they never run plays from there beginning set, will the defense ever respect the initial alignment? A lot of times the initial formation is so bizarre the defense automatically expects the shift, and with any scouting you can predict how they are going to finish. Don't get me wrong me I love to shift, and we'll move around especially when the defense flops personel to the strength. Don't you need to be able to run plays out of the initial formation for the defense to respect it? Or does that not matter. I think they do it because it his hard to prepare your defense for an offensive formation when you don't know what it is. They may not run anything out of the fullhouse they come out in, but they shift to a new set and are off before most defenses have a time to fully situate themselves. The biggest way this has helped them is in the running game, a lot of times I see D-Lineman moving around a lot before the snap, most of the time the front 7 alignment isn't in place very long before the play (and sometimes it is just way off) which can be seen by the Middle Linebacker having a fit behind the dline. This synchronized shift they did is something i've never seen before. One guy moves, then another, then another, then another. I wish I had video on it, seems like the only person that knows this specific shift is Brophy and I'm not sure why they haven't done it more than just that one game. |
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Post by djwesp on Dec 13, 2006 20:46:43 GMT -6
Nebraska--I wonder that same thing too. We played a team this year that did that every single down. They were a running team, mostly wing-t and every snap they would come up in the power I or the String I and then shift. But I can't remember them ever snapping the ball in the initial formation. They also wasted a TON of time during the final minutes of the game trying to drive down during the 2-min. They were shifting from power I to 4-wide sets to throw the ball. They would waste 10 seconds every snap when they should have been in warp speed mode. We do not shift. We wil motion. We don't shift for some of the reasons wildcat mentioned. Kids get messed up. I know it comes down to reps, and we choose to spend out practice time not repping shifts. Now we do use motion, especially with our flankers to change strength or get him in position to release on a route or make a block, or just as a decoy. We do not confuse anyone in our league when it comes to formations. We are pretty straight forward. Sounds like that team needs to realize there is a time and place for everything. The point of the shift is to give yourself an advantage, not a disadvantage. We did it before every play for ONE game and if the game had ever been in doubt because of it we would have stopped doing it (or if we would have had to gone into 2 minute drill). |
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Post by airman on Dec 13, 2006 20:54:56 GMT -6
I like to shift to and from the pole cat formation. sort of a odd thing I guess but when you run 5 wides, it breaks up the same old thing.
also like to lineup in double bunch sets ahd run mesh and then shift out of it.
stacks and unstacks. quads bacn to 3x2. 3x2 to quads.
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2006 21:42:15 GMT -6
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20x
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Posts: 380
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Post by 20x on Dec 13, 2006 22:02:56 GMT -6
If you can find any gamefilms, Nebraska does this sort of shifting every week. The thing that I'd like know would be the verbage behind it.
Does anyone have any terminology behind any of the shifts that they run or anything close.
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Post by djwesp on Dec 13, 2006 22:38:05 GMT -6
I just watched the entire first half for them on offense and didn't see this shift I'm talking about.
If it wasn't so hard to describe, maybe I could be of more help.
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viking
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Post by viking on Dec 13, 2006 22:44:39 GMT -6
I am afraid that if we shift and the defense even gets confused or lines up wrong, we might still be at a disadvantage as a mostly man blocking team. Same with the quick huddle.
I think shifting is more fitting for zone blocking teams. Agree?
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2006 22:52:24 GMT -6
I just watched the entire first half for them on offense and didn't see this shift I'm talking about. If it wasn't so hard to describe, maybe I could be of more help. I just watched what I recorded of the Big XII championship were they got put behind the eight-ball early and didn't see what I thought I saw.......if I can find my copy of the Colorado game ( around Thanksgiving) I'm sure THAT is what I remembered. Showing about 2 or 3 distinctly different formations before the snap, mostly to run gap counter / OZ from one back. |
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Post by gldnglv165 on Dec 15, 2006 2:09:44 GMT -6
<<If you can find any gamefilms, Nebraska does this sort of shifting every week. The thing that I'd like know would be the verbage behind it.
Does anyone have any terminology behind any of the shifts that they run or anything close. >>
I would like to know their terminology as well. I have a few of their games recorded on DVD. I think I have Missouri, Colorado, and Oklahoma, but might have one or two others. I like watching them shift around and have noticed the different philosophies on shifting with them. Earlier in the season it seemed like when they did all that shifting they always ran the ball, but started throwing more after all the shifting later in the season (might just be my limited observation of only a few of their games.) I have been trying to find reasons to incorporate shifting into my offense, but I need a solid justification to spend the practice time on it. To try to create zone match-ups from the defense doesn't really justify it for me. The defenses I see aren't usually sophisiticated enough to check calls and make changes on the fly. I think I could shift all day long and not get much of a reaction from the defense. The only way I can see shifting being effective for me is to go balanced to unbalanced or vice versa. All the "window dressing" that Nebraska does probably wouldn't do much for me and I could see myself wasting a lot of time shifting like groundchuck explained above. The balanced to unbalanced shifts make sense to me as a way to outnumber a defense to one side that I want to run the ball to.
Getting back to Nebraska, I wonder how effective their shifting really is. The did force Oklahoma to spend a time out because they had trouble communicating on one particular play, but I can't believe that all the shifting and time spent on it was worth causing the other team to spend one time out.
Other thoughts on uses of shifting and how to incorporate at the high school level? I like kcbazooka's method, but looking for other more specific forms and terminology of shifting.
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Post by knighter on Dec 15, 2006 6:44:53 GMT -6
In theory shifting is great, but for us an advantage we have against our opponents is we KNOW where they are going to lineup against us 90% of the time. If we know where they are going to lineup we can concentrate on how we are going to block them. Again in theory shifting is great, and we use it often, but it forces us to constantly take practice time to work against many different looks defensivley, and even in doing that it is still our best guess as to how we THINK they will adjust. Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better served just lining up the same way every play so that we can become familiar with exactly how teams will try to defend us. That's just me.
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Post by brophy on Dec 15, 2006 8:49:02 GMT -6
shifting makes sense if you can run your offense out of a lot of different formations and not lose a beat.
It is tough to run double dive without having to bring someone in motion.....
The bottom line of shifting.....
is the same as the point of this thread
(Using formations to manipulate a defense).
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 15, 2006 8:56:16 GMT -6
In theory shifting is great, but for us an advantage we have against our opponents is we KNOW where they are going to lineup against us 90% of the time. If we know where they are going to lineup we can concentrate on how we are going to block them. Again in theory shifting is great, and we use it often, but it forces us to constantly take practice time to work against many different looks defensivley, and even in doing that it is still our best guess as to how we THINK they will adjust. Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better served just lining up the same way every play so that we can become familiar with exactly how teams will try to defend us. That's just me. I have to agree...if I am going to try and run a few plays from a million looks then i have a million blocking adjustments to cover. sure it steals practice time from the other guy but honestly, it steals it from me too...ie, my wing is now a flanker, that takes time to cover "coach who do I block now?" or My te is a wing or an H back aligns at fb etc...the changes are minor, but they increase the likelihood of seeing some screwy defense that my kids dont know what to do with. keep it simple stupid. there have been enough teams that run 3-4 formations (or less) that win big. I just believe in keeping alignment simple on both sides of the ball. let the kids make plays. |
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Post by mnpasso on Dec 15, 2006 13:28:17 GMT -6
I was watching one of the Nebraska games mentioned and all of the shifts (ex. F-Over) are on the wristband as part of the play name. It was incredibly long, as every shift and motion was called prior to the actual play. They showed an example of this on the wristband as the announcers were talking about it.
I wonder if Nebraska didn't run out of the initial set because the defense actually honored it. I would guess they would run a quick count play if the opponent really didn't respect the initial formation.
Think of how much time is spent/wasted? by the opposing defense in preparing for Nebraska on shifts and motions and not fundamentals!
kcbazooka,
I have used the same concept of shifting. One shift word meant to change the width of the formation (from bunch to trips), while another shift word meant to change the strength of the formation (Y trade). We gave the skill players some guidance on what to do, and let them do the rest. It was effective in the game, and the players enjoyed it as they would have fun with it in practice(form a 3-man pyramid in the backfield then shift to trips).
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Post by brophy on Dec 15, 2006 13:45:29 GMT -6
I was watching one of the Nebraska games mentioned and all of the shifts (ex. F-Over) are on the wristband as part of the play name. It was incredibly long, as every shift and motion was called prior to the actual play. They showed an example of this on the wristband as the announcers were talking about it. I wonder if Nebraska didn't run out of the initial set because the defense actually honored it. I would guess they would run a quick count play if the opponent really didn't respect the initial formation. Think of how much time is spent/wasted? by the opposing defense in preparing for Nebraska on shifts and motions and not fundamentals! kcbazooka, I have used the same concept of shifting. One shift word meant to change the width of the formation (from bunch to trips), while another shift word meant to change the strength of the formation (Y trade). We gave the skill players some guidance on what to do, and let them do the rest. It was effective in the game, and the players enjoyed it as they would have fun with it in practice(form a 3-man pyramid in the backfield then shift to trips). While we're on the Nebraska thing..........(if we want to carry this out) Callahan and Norvell both came from the Raiders during Gruden's tenure. With Gruden's HC's offenses, his terminology is pretty verbose....and notably, during Tampa Bay's Super Bowl run a few years ago, they made a living of creating mismatches with the shifts & motions (using Keyshawn, Alstott, Pittman, McCardell, Jurevicius, Dilger, & Dudley) Now, I don't know jack about the specifics, that's why I'm interested in what others are doing. |
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Post by wingman on Dec 16, 2006 12:03:01 GMT -6
We run the same shift letting the backs start anywhere but end up where they belong sometimes "Crazy-Right_ ( start anywhere but end up in Right. I think the key to our doing it and we run hundreds of possible shifts and formations is the game script including each play's shift and formation is run the same every day in practice during team and sprints. So by Friday they have run the same play with the same shift 6 or 7 times. Of course, the defense doesn't know which part of the whole package we're using. I think the best thing it does is reduce recognition time. HS kids get 'deer in the headlights' looks when you shift fast. Every one has tendencies from formations but if they don't recognize the formation, they can't anticipate or have time to make calls.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 16, 2006 12:19:04 GMT -6
in establishing shifts, set up "rules" for a shift. example:
"Walk" is a term that tells the TE to shift over. Only refers to the TE, so he will "Walk" to the called formation. R is the name for pro right ... so, Walk R would tell the TE to align left & shift to R. all other players line up where they would on R ... Walk simply tells everyone that the TE is shifting (rec''s will need to be aware)
"Shift" is similar term for H-back. only refers to the H. "Shift R Wing" simply tells the H-back to align normal, then "shift to wing". all other players align in R.
"Tango" is walk to TE and Shift to H-back. so, Tango R Wing means the TE aligns left & H in backfield. they shift together to right & wing. all others align in R
could go on and on ... but, we simply come up with terms for rules then use that "move" term in front of the formation name. "Bump Rope" ... bump = moving term. Rope = formation we end up in. moving terms have a "starting" point based on the ending formation. in the example of "walk" for the TE ... his starting point is opposite the formation called. i.e. if walk R then he must finish in R (right) so he lines up in L (left) to start. rule for h-back on shift is "if shifting to wing/slot or receiver postion start in backfield. if shifting to the backfield start in wing or slot.
try to create the rules for each position and terms to use for multiple players (bump = multiple. splash = multiple. etc.)
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Post by brophy on Dec 16, 2006 21:05:17 GMT -6
does any one else have examples of how ONE formation stresses a defense (moves a player out of the box / compresses defenders / etc)..to use the formation as a weapon (shifts are a means to an end....the formation is what is causing the problem)........
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Post by hoptions on Dec 17, 2006 21:54:12 GMT -6
We are a split back veer team. 3 years ago we had 3 formations (pro, twins, double tight) we would then use motions by one of our backs to remove option defenders (motioning to a doubles formation or trips formation) then run our veer plays as just a double option with out a pitch.
This past year we gave our self the ability to just line up in the formations that we had been motioning to and then having the ability to motion back to split backs or not. We also used the inside wide receivers to back peddle in to pitch relationship after the snap on the veer plays from time to time.
We felt that this helped us out a lot allowing us manipulate the defensive alignments even more then we had been with just a simple back motion.
It did not cause us to have to adjust our blocking schemes due to alignment at all. Our blocking schemes are simple and we also teach the “scheme” not just the assignments. For example on outside veer we read EMOL and block everyone else between him and the center with combo blocks working up to the next level). This allowed for a simple transition to being a multiple formation team.
Also didn’t matter because teams never line up to us the way the do to other teams anyway.
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