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Post by mahonz on Jan 4, 2009 22:02:54 GMT -6
Questions for you.
If an independent league that played by grade only was an option in your particular area what would it take for you to make the move out of PW or AYF… or a league that restricts weight and plays teams made up of kids in multiple age groups?
No Disney, no national affiliations, no weight restrictions.
Same insurance, same facilities, local level administration, same amount of regular season games, same registration fees, same league boundaries.
Each staff would have the opportunity to coach a team of 1st graders through their 8th grade season if desired. Backfield limitations on both sides of the ball would be in place through the 5th grade, thereafter no weight restriction at any position. No funny football rules or mandates whatsoever. Rosters from 20 –25. All equipment supplied including chutes and sleds if required.
Drafts would be blind for any sign ups that are new or unknown players. Recruiting would be legal within your boundary area for any kid that has never played in the league before. Once a player is placed on a team that player cannot move to another team. Coaches will be trained by the league. Officials will be trained by the league. Administrators cannot be affiliated with a team.
From 1st grade through the 3rd grade, all teams would play on a 60-yard field with all penalties and first down distance adjusted, 4th grade through the 6th grade, 80-yard fields, 7th and 8th grade 100-yard fields. All age groups would play 12-minute quarters. Third graders would play with and against 3rd graders, 7th graders against 7th graders and so on.
Coaches would be allowed on the field for the 1st and 2nd graders. The 7th and 8th grade level would create an all star tryout division but would attempt to keep one house team in tact.
All champions from each age group and division would play a regional championship tournament against like leagues from surrounding states over the Thanksgiving week in warm weather cities. Sponsors would pick up 50% of the costs to travel.
Would you consider a move to a league like this and would you bring your current team?
If not…why? If so…why?
Thanks in advance. Your answers / thoughts/ ideas / questions will help me out a lot.
Coach Mike
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Post by los on Jan 4, 2009 22:46:18 GMT -6
Mike, our league here was set up very similar to that, although, with a few minor differences....unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits....8 and 10 min. regulation qtrs......totally independent league(unaffiliated)......8-10 game seasons.....1 coach allowed on the field(with the younger age group).....had a few special rules dealing with blitzing,over weight kids as ball carriers/recievers, options to punt or just advance the ball a set yardage, but other than that, just fed rules.....you could run any system offensively, defensively or special teams wise, you liked, as long as you followed the few rules in place....the individual coach's had the option, of taking a team all the way thru the program, or just sticking with one age group, whatever they wanted(this was our local thing though) not sure what the guys from the other programs/county's in the league did?....one big difference was you qualified for a team by age, rather than grade and we only had 2 groups = 8-10's and 11-12's....from 13 or 8th grade on, ours played for the school teams.....but basically it was a lot of fun...real life football format for the most part......had all sizes, shapes, speed and talent levels all on the same team.....this format has its own challenges, for sure, but I'm sure the others do as well....this is actually the only format I've been involved with in youth football....(never been associated with PW or any other weight class type ball, so have nothing to compare with really)? But...I really enjoyed coaching this way and had a blast! los
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Post by coachorr on Jan 5, 2009 1:07:11 GMT -6
"unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits"
I would just like to find a "non-soccer" league that has this one rule. Where can I find this in AMERICA? WTF. With so many things that little tiny kids can go and do, why do we take the one bastion of Americana, which favors the strong and water it down to some BS league that does nothing to help the kids that every football team needs.......good linemen.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 5, 2009 10:31:04 GMT -6
Mike, our league here was set up very similar to that, although, with a few minor differences....unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits....8 and 10 min. regulation qtrs......totally independent league(unaffiliated)......8-10 game seasons.....1 coach allowed on the field(with the younger age group).....had a few special rules dealing with blitzing,over weight kids as ball carriers/recievers, options to punt or just advance the ball a set yardage, but other than that, just fed rules.....you could run any system offensively, defensively or special teams wise, you liked, as long as you followed the few rules in place....the individual coach's had the option, of taking a team all the way thru the program, or just sticking with one age group, whatever they wanted(this was our local thing though) not sure what the guys from the other programs/county's in the league did?....one big difference was you qualified for a team by age, rather than grade and we only had 2 groups = 8-10's and 11-12's....from 13 or 8th grade on, ours played for the school teams.....but basically it was a lot of fun...real life football format for the most part......had all sizes, shapes, speed and talent levels all on the same team.....this format has its own challenges, for sure, but I'm sure the others do as well....this is actually the only format I've been involved with in youth football....(never been associated with PW or any other weight class type ball, so have nothing to compare with really)? But...I really enjoyed coaching this way and had a blast! los LOS Thanks for the feedback. Your league is very close to what we are trying to accomplish but on a regional level for starters...so each league has to follow the same format. We are trying to build some affiliations but the concern is...if an area were heavy PW would they make the change or would it simply create more competition between leagues and create separation ( watering down) in an area. What city are you in? Coach Mike
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Post by mahonz on Jan 5, 2009 10:42:51 GMT -6
"unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits" I would just like to find a "non-soccer" league that has this one rule. Where can I find this in AMERICA? WTF. With so many things that little tiny kids can go and do, why do we take the one bastion of Americana, which favors the strong and water it down to some BS league that does nothing to help the kids that every football team needs.......good linemen. Coach The nature of the beast with unlimited weight leagues is a backfield limitation for at least the youngest age groups. This is so mom will sign up her average size kid without fearing the fact that there will be kids much larger playing on the same field. So linebackers and defensive backs, running backs and quarterbacks are limited on how much they can weigh. For example, the 5th grade level would limit those positions to say 110 pounds and under. This is simply put in place to encourage numbers at the younger age groups. Thereafter the weight restrictions are lifted. The reality is a 5th grader that weighs 150 pounds probably wont be a running back anyway because he hasn’t grown into that body yet, but it could happen. If you take a big city like Phoenix that is heavy pop warner…through our investigations they turn away 1000’s of potential players each season because they are too big for any division. They do have a Batam and Unlimited division but field few if any teams. These divisions start once a kid is in MS. The reason these divisions are not working is due to the fact that once a kid is turned away in elementary school they find other sports to play and move on so to speak until HS. If you look into the competitive flag leagues in Phoenix, they are littered with big kids that are not eligible to play tackle football. The question is…if a well organized unlimited weight league rolled into a big city like Phoenix what would happen? Maybe jhwana (sp) who is from the Phoenix area can expand on this ? Coach Mike
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Post by davecisar on Jan 5, 2009 10:42:59 GMT -6
"unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits" I would just like to find a "non-soccer" league that has this one rule. Where can I find this in AMERICA? WTF. With so many things that little tiny kids can go and do, why do we take the one bastion of Americana, which favors the strong and water it down to some BS league that does nothing to help the kids that every football team needs.......good linemen. Coach, I think what the poster was saying is any player of any size is allowed to play, it's just that the bigger kids have to play on the line. In our league at 7th-8th grade you have to be over 170 to be restricted to playing on the line. Everything else is real football with the exception of 10 minute quarters etc
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Post by coachorr on Jan 5, 2009 10:55:39 GMT -6
Sirs, I have no problem with heavier kids playing on the line, perfect. What I do have a problem with is saying that if you do not meet a certain weight, you cannot play Dline. Then if you do not meet another certain weight (above the no dline req.) then you have to play up. WTF, is that all about.
Let all the kids play in their age group. Have a weight limit, but only for backs and other skilled players.
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Post by coachorr on Jan 5, 2009 10:56:18 GMT -6
AS stated as such: unlimited playing weights with ball carrier weight limits"
I would just like to find a "non-soccer" league that has this one rule.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 5, 2009 11:09:25 GMT -6
Ive never seen a league where any kid was restricted by weight to a postion other than one where he could carry the football.
IN Pop Warner they do restrict by weight, if you weigh too much you have to play up or in some cases not play at all. Pop Warner makes up a tiny portion of what is available in youth football in 2009. Today there are far more unlimited weight leagues with "ball carrier" weights than there are Pop Warner or AFL teams. In "football is important" areas you will almost always find unlimited teams even where Pop Warner teams exist.
While Pop Warner is still strong in the East, there are many states like mine where Pop Warner hasnt existed in over 25 years. PW does some great things, but unfortunately they restrict far too many kids from playing that should be.
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Post by coachorr on Jan 5, 2009 11:46:04 GMT -6
Mahonz league sounds like heavan to me.
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Post by cyflcoach on Jan 5, 2009 13:10:16 GMT -6
We are an "unlimited" league with ball carrier restrictions as well. At the 6-7 age level, the ball carrier limit is 80 lbs. but a player can weigh up to 100 lbs. and still be eligible to catch a pass as a TE. At 8-9, the limits are 110/130 and at 10-12 they are 140/160.
IMO, since the most dangerous activity a player engages in is tackling, it makes sense to limit the size of players carrying the football. Although a fair amount of risk is inherent with the game, limitations of this kind do eliminate a major portion of that risk when combined with a major emphasis on teaching tackling the right way, hence the importance of coaching fundamentals at every level of play.
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by los on Jan 5, 2009 21:38:40 GMT -6
Mike....I'm in rural southwest georgia....no big city very close by, lol....ours was a league with a few of the surrounding counties....this part of ga. has many small counties, but not a lot of population in each, so its hard to get enough numbers to play locally......The format we used was already in place, when I started coaching here, but I really liked it....over the years, as kids seemed to grow a little larger, we eased the ball carrier weights up slightly....I think my last season they were 115-120 pounds for the 8-10 and 125-130 pounds for the 11-12 group?....ours only had to certify age/weight one time, at a pre-season jamboree....after that, they were good to go for the rest of the season(no starving to maintain weight for every game weigh ins).....like the Dave's mentioned above....it was probably our biggest safety concern, since tackling seemed to have the most risk?.....I personally never witnessed a problem, having large kids and small ones on the same field during games(and ours could actually play "any position", just couldn't handle the ball, running, recieving, passing or punting....they could kick off though).....to me, accidents were more likely to occur at practice, from mismatching players in drills by an inexperienced coach.....this was one of the things we really harped on, at our pre-season coach's meetings.....use a little common sense....teach safe techniques.....match up players by size/skill level during drills.....during games played in the wide open football field, the little guys could avoid the biggins, for the most part....now.....if you have a 175 pound athletic kid running the ball,(that they're all trying to tackle) you can throw all that out the window....this would be very unsafe. And yeah coachorr, we did have some big kids that played O and D line in youth ball and turned out to be good HS linemen.....and we had some little fast kids at the skill positions in youth ball, that became slightly bigger and faster skill kids in HS ball.....but...we also had big kids that quit growing and ended up as skill kids and little kids that grew huge and later became linemen in HS.....its not an exact science at these ages, you really can't always tell what you're gonna get......therefore....we spent a bunch of time teaching them all the same basic stuff, lol.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 5, 2009 22:51:48 GMT -6
Coaches
I truly believe that weight limitations have merit for certain positions. I have always coached in unlimited weight leagues and have coached a few that would probably hurt others playing anything but d-line.
The reality is the real big pre-pubescent kids are typically rather weak as athletes but once they hit puberty its pretty much on. Plus, and this always amazes me, young giant kids are rather docile because mom and dad are always on them to be careful with others. I can appreciate that but its now hard for them to learn to flip that switch once they suit up. Its almost like they don’t quite believe you when you tell em…hey this is the one place where you can smash on others and not get in trouble.
Still you cant convince moms who write the registration checks that its safe for little Johnny to play without some restrictions on the field under the unlimited weight format.
So my big question is still…what would a pop warner league do if an unlimited weight league rolled into their town? Basically and currently every team suited is the same size but different ages playing with and against each other…so would parents understand what it really meant that every team suited is now not the same size but all the same age? Would that matter?
As coaches we all cringe a bit at the fact that a 9 year old can play with a 12 year old under certain circumstances under the pop warner format. That is absurd even if they weigh the same. The level of mental growth between the 2 age groups is night and day. If 9 year olds only played with 9 year olds and 12 year olds only play with 12 year olds…would size matter? For me, not at all but I am used to that.
Thanks for the feedback.
Coach Mike
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Post by coachorr on Jan 6, 2009 13:05:57 GMT -6
"Still you cant convince moms who write the registration checks that its safe for little Johnny to play without some restrictions on the field under the unlimited weight format. "
I don't like it when the indians run the tepee. Little Johnny needs to look into other avenues, because in the end, people who have unreasonable expectations and want to be catered to, are best not being there in the first place.
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 6, 2009 13:49:42 GMT -6
Mike:
I've always (15 years) coached in full weight-restricted leagues like Pop Warner and AYF - in fact our league was affiliated with Pop Warner for most of my time, and then we moved to AYF. We've been independent now for a couple years, but we've kept the weight limitation rules.
While it is hasn't been a huge issue, it is a little frustrating when you see kids get turned away because they're too big. Also, most of the kids who play line for us end up getting moved to TE, FB or LB in HS because they're just not big enough for line at that level. Most of the kids that end up playing line in HS just don't play in our youth league. An unlimited weight league with ball carrier weight restrictions sounds like a pretty good idea.
However, if you start a new league like this where you already have Pop Warner / AYF leagues, you aren't going to get individual coaches and teams to move. The entire program will either move or not move. For instance, in our program in Redondo Beach, we have Flag, Mitey Mite, Jr Pee Wee, Pee Wee, Jr Midget, Midget and All-American (our one unlimited weight group, for 7th & 8th graders), all of which are overseen by our Board of Directors. No one team would be able to move on its own. So, you're going to have to make your pitch to the BOD of the various programs. It would be a good idea to sell the coaches so that you have some grassroots support, but the BOD will make the decision.
If this came up here, I doubt very much that our program would make the move. I think you would get an attitude of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." We're not getting a lot of complaints about bigger kids not being able to play and our one unlimited weight team generally has trouble getting enough kids to field a team.
My guess is, unless there are a lot of people in your area complaining about the issue of big kids being turned away, you are going to have a difficult time persuading existing programs to move to the new league. You'll probably end up having to start new programs that compete with the existing programs for players. You may be able to find some underserved areas, but I suspect you'll end up going after a lot of the same players. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, I'm just trying to address your question.
I hope that helps and I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 6, 2009 17:16:48 GMT -6
Coach Doug
Thank you for the quality feedback. Like you I have coached youth ball many years but always in an unlimited weight league. So forgive my ignorance.
If I may…
Why did your organization change from PW To AYF? I have been seriously investigating each and I don’t see a big difference if you choose to follow the AYF national format. AYF seems to really stress good rates on insurance, for example. I have owned an adult semi pro team before and we use Sadler Insurance also. They had the best rates in the country and it broke down to about $6 per player. This is the about same rate that Sadler gives AYF…yes I called my rep and asked. Our semi pro league is nothing special as far as numbers, 10 teams, and probably more of a liability when you figure adults playing verses children since we can serve alcohol. So you can see why I am asking why.
I understand that AYF allows an organization to be “independent” of a national board but if you want to be a part of the national championship you have to follow their national guidelines. Nothing wrong with that at all…if you want to compete on a national level you must have national guidelines…but these guidelines are ever so close to the PW guidelines. So why move like so many organizations are beginning to do?
Is being able to complete at the national level that important to you and your associates in your league? That’s a heck of a financial commitment for anyone right before the holidays if their son / daughter were to make it to Florida. I have put together 5 or 6 trips to the Youth Nationals in Las Vegas for my teams over the years and it is expensive…and not every player on the team makes the trip. You would be making a cross-country trip.
Do you have issues with a 10 year old possibly playing with a 13 year old? That is the part I am struggling with regardless if they weigh nearly the same. I cant imagine a kid that may be hitting puberty and noticing girls playing with a butterfly watcher who can hardly wait to finish his Diorama once he gets home from practice. Do you experience this at all?
I figured that an existing weight restricted league would not open up their hearts and minds to my idea of an unlimited weight program at all. I figured the exact opposite would be the case so I am expecting nothing but grief from the local chapters.
Appreciate your feedback.
Coach Mike
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 6, 2009 20:25:33 GMT -6
Coach Doug Thank you for the quality feedback. Like you I have coached youth ball many years but always in an unlimited weight league. So forgive my ignorance. If I may… Why did your organization change from PW To AYF? I have been seriously investigating each and I don’t see a big difference if you choose to follow the AYF national format. AYF seems to really stress good rates on insurance, for example. I have owned an adult semi pro team before and we use Sadler Insurance also. They had the best rates in the country and it broke down to about $6 per player. This is the about same rate that Sadler gives AYF…yes I called my rep and asked. Our semi pro league is nothing special as far as numbers, 10 teams, and probably more of a liability when you figure adults playing verses children since we can serve alcohol. So you can see why I am asking why. I understand that AYF allows an organization to be “independent” of a national board but if you want to be a part of the national championship you have to follow their national guidelines. Nothing wrong with that at all…if you want to compete on a national level you must have national guidelines…but these guidelines are ever so close to the PW guidelines. So why move like so many organizations are beginning to do? Is being able to complete at the national level that important to you and your associates in your league? That’s a heck of a financial commitment for anyone right before the holidays if their son / daughter were to make it to Florida. I have put together 5 or 6 trips to the Youth Nationals in Las Vegas for my teams over the years and it is expensive…and not every player on the team makes the trip. You would be making a cross-country trip. Do you have issues with a 10 year old possibly playing with a 13 year old? That is the part I am struggling with regardless if they weigh nearly the same. I cant imagine a kid that may be hitting puberty and noticing girls playing with a butterfly watcher who can hardly wait to finish his Diorama once he gets home from practice. Do you experience this at all? I figured that an existing weight restricted league would not open up their hearts and minds to my idea of an unlimited weight program at all. I figured the exact opposite would be the case so I am expecting nothing but grief from the local chapters. Appreciate your feedback. Coach Mike Mike: I wasn't really involved with decisions to switch from Pop Warner to AYF and then from AYF to indepedent, but I do know some of the reasons. We left Pop Warner for AYF in 2001 (or maybe 2002). This wasn't even a program decision - this decision was made by the entire conference. This was right after Pop Warner mandated that every player must wear a PW patch on the uniform that had to be purchased from PW at about $1 a piece (these patches clearly cost no more than about 10 cents to produce). They were also in the process of certifying certain suppliers as PW approved and were then going to require that all PW programs only purchase from PW approved vendors - obviously at greater cost to individual programs - I don't know if this ever actually happened, but it sounded like it was fait acompli at the time. I also seem to recall hearing that PW had officially changed their tax status from non-profilt to for-profit - that may not have been true, but it was consistent with their behavior at the time. So, in a nutshell, our entire conference moved from PW because PW was just getting too greedy financially and wasn't really providing anything in return. We were with AYF for about 3-4 years, but, from what I heard, AYF started getting a little greedy, too, so the decision was made (at the conference level, again) to drop the national affiliation and just go independent, which happened in 2006 or 2007. I really don't know anything about the insurance issues. Competing nationally is not a big deal to us - even when we were in PW and AYF, we (as in our conference) rarely participated in FL - opting instead to just have regional championships in the Southwestern US and Hawaii. Hell, our conference is at a major disadvantage when we play nationally since we don't allow older-lighters, so obviously national competition is not our biggest priority. As far as having kids 4 years apart playing together, it really doesn't come up that much. First of all, since we don't allow older-lighters, most of our age divisions only cover 2-3 years (Mitey Mite is 8-9, Jr Pee Wee is 8-10, Pee Wee is 9-11, Jr Midget is 10-12, and Midget is 11-14), so we would never have a 10 yr old playing with a 13 yr old (unless someone had a birthday duriing the season). On my team last year (10-12 age group), we didn't have any 10 yr olds, and only about 4-5 11 yr olds, with the other 28-29 players all being 12. Of course, I have seen parents leave sign ups when they realized that their chubby, immature 9 yr-old would have to play on a team of almost all 11 yr-olds because of his weight. I think, as you alluded to, most parents will just put their kid into some other sport rather than have him play with kids that are much older and more mature. However, when we did allow older-lighters (we disallowed them starting in 2003 or so), this was an issue. Theoretically, it was possible to have a kid who just turned 9 in July playing on the same team as a kid playing as an older-lighter who turned 13 in August. While that didn't happen too often, we certainly did have 10 year olds playing with kids that turned 13 during the season, and I agree with you, regardless of weight, it was a huge mismatch. I suspect you are correct - existing programs probably won't embrace what you are doing, but if you do it properly and really market your league to the kids that aren't being serviced by the existing leagues, you should be succesful without getting too much grief from those existing leagues. Especially if you're in a big city. For instance, when Snoop Dogg started his league here in L.A., there were already football programs in most of the areas where he had teams, but he largely attracted players that weren't already in those other programs (or at least tried to). I know that a couple programs did get decimated by Snoop defections, but for the most part, Snoop's league hasn't really had much of an effect on the other existing programs in the area. Again, I wish you the best of luck. Feel free to shoot me a message any time if I can help you in any way.
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Post by coachorr on Jan 7, 2009 5:22:22 GMT -6
"While it is hasn't been a huge issue, it is a little frustrating when you see kids get turned away because they're too big."
Yeah, it would be a frustrating thing to say the least.
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Post by jhanawa on Jan 7, 2009 10:31:08 GMT -6
We went from PW to AYF a few years back for much of the same reasons that Doug mentioned, plus the AZ PW politics were unreal. AYF has a All American division for the older kids that has unlimited weights, the problem, as you mentioned is the younger, big kids being turned away from the younger teams. This creates numbers issues for when those kids are old enough to play in the unlimited division. The only alternative in AZ for completely unlimited is the competative league, but its unorganized, lacks numbers and for the most part, is poorly coached. I think the scenario your describing sounds great, IMO, young, big kids aren't physically developed to a point that they are going to pose a risk to other kids, I think age is the best way to sort kids, and if a weight limit is a must, then it needs to have a wider range....
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Post by coachorr on Jan 8, 2009 13:24:41 GMT -6
And another thing, when those big kids who were turned away are now ready to play in an older league. They have limited aggressiveness and knowledge of the game, so smaller more skilled players who have been playing for a while; will be decisively better at the onset, which only discourages some of the large kids to continue playing.
I think the loss of some of these kids is due to them not being given success early on. "You play up and get your butt kicked".
Or "Now you can play, but you will get your butt kicked by all these other kids who have been playing for a couple of years".
And "Since you are out of shape and have no development of the muscles, you use for football, you are going to be in a lot of pain for a while".
Also, "You have limited playing relationships with the kids who are playing and no relationship at all with any of the coaches".
All of these factors eventually disenfranchising some of the heavier kids and creating larger kids.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 8, 2009 17:43:52 GMT -6
We went from PW to AYF a few years back for much of the same reasons that Doug mentioned, plus the AZ PW politics were unreal. AYF has a All American division for the older kids that has unlimited weights, the problem, as you mentioned is the younger, big kids being turned away from the younger teams. This creates numbers issues for when those kids are old enough to play in the unlimited division. The only alternative in AZ for completely unlimited is the competative league, but its unorganized, lacks numbers and for the most part, is poorly coached. I think the scenario your describing sounds great, IMO, young, big kids aren't physically developed to a point that they are going to pose a risk to other kids, I think age is the best way to sort kids, and if a weight limit is a must, then it needs to have a wider range.... Coach Sorry I butchered your screen name earlier. Phoenix is one of the cities we have been studying as an area possibly primed for an unlimited weight league that would encompass the entire metro area. If I may… Can you explain some of the political issues that surrounded PW in Phoenix? If I remember correctly, Tucson PW moved their entire org to AYF and few years ago. What would be the results either way of starting the season Oct 1 instead of Sept 1 because of the heat?…first considering the league would forgo any national formats / tournaments. Finally, I attended ASU for a few years and miss the Mill Avenue experience ( more beautiful women per square block than anywhere else on the planet) . What league do you currently coach in? Would you all be receptive to this idea? Would you be willing to help? Thanks for the feedback. Coach Mike
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Post by mahonz on Jan 8, 2009 17:45:03 GMT -6
And another thing, when those big kids who were turned away are now ready to play in an older league. They have limited aggressiveness and knowledge of the game, so smaller more skilled players who have been playing for a while; will be decisively better at the onset, which only discourages some of the large kids to continue playing. I think the loss of some of these kids is due to them not being given success early on. "You play up and get your butt kicked". Or "Now you can play, but you will get your butt kicked by all these other kids who have been playing for a couple of years". And "Since you are out of shape and have no development of the muscles, you use for football, you are going to be in a lot of pain for a while". Also, "You have limited playing relationships with the kids who are playing and no relationship at all with any of the coaches". All of these factors eventually disenfranchising some of the heavier kids and creating larger kids. Coach …just thinking out loud…. Maybe the long-term influence of a PW type format has indirectly helped create the a-11 offense. I wonder what format the youth levels follow in the Piedmont area? Coach Mike
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Post by mahonz on Jan 8, 2009 17:45:51 GMT -6
Coach Doug
I always wondered how Snoop passed the background check. I guess if you start the league then you get a free pass.
Thanks again for your thoughts on this.
Coach Mike
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Post by los on Jan 9, 2009 5:58:09 GMT -6
I agree coachorr, somehow, seem's totally "bass ackward".....to tell a kid...uhhh, sorry son, you're "too big" for your age, to play football"....Almost sounds ridiculous to hear it,actually...."What"...too big for football, lol....cmon....next it will be "you're too fast".....or "your kid is too mean and enjoys pummeling the other kids too much", lol....JH is right IMO, "most" young, big kids, aren't athletic enough to pose as serious risk, in fact the contrary, "you have to work hard, convincing them, its OK to be aggressive and push the other kids around"....and we had some real biggins over the years.....I recall one stretch of a couple seasons, having 2 kids on the same team in the 250 pound plus range, as 11 and 12 yr. olds.....where the smallest kids on the field, were probably 75-80 pounds....just wasn't a problem.....Good luck with your idea Mike, hope it works out well!
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Post by bigshel on Jan 9, 2009 17:11:10 GMT -6
mahonz
re your out loud wondering about the Piedmont youth level kids... I coach in a PW organization of 350+ kids. Historically, we only get a handful of kids from Piedmont... IMHO there are more Piedmont kids playing soccer and lacrosse than youth football.
On another subject, I have long been a proponent of unlimited lineman weights at each age group. I can't tell you how many times I've had to turn a kid away because of his weight... or telling a kid after he works his butt off in August that he didn't certify based on his weight... it just isn't fair. I've also seen the other end of the spectrum...kids who rise through the ranks in PW playing on the line, only to get to high school and find that they arereally strong safety or OSLB size. Even with their playing experience, it can be a BIG adjustment learning to play in space after 7 years in a phonebooth.
Just my 2 cents...
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shag
Probationary Member
Posts: 7
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Post by shag on Jan 9, 2009 21:10:34 GMT -6
Mahonz, I have coached in The Texas School of Football league for two years now. They are an independent football league in the Fort Worth area. The League has no weight limit for the divisions but there are weight restrictions for each division, if a player is over the weight limit for that division he is "stickered" and must play on the line of scrimmage. The league has grown very rapidly over the last 4 years due to the freedom that each team is allowed to have. Each team is basically run as it's own organization. We play using the same rules as the high schools here in texas with the only modificaiton being with the punt game. They have a website that you can visit, www.texasschooloffootball.com/ The director of the league is a great guy and if you wanted to talk to him about how he runs things I think he would be more than willing to talk to you. I hope this this is the kind of information that you are looking for.
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Post by mahonz on Jan 10, 2009 11:51:28 GMT -6
Mahonz, I have coached in The Texas School of Football league for two years now. They are an independent football league in the Fort Worth area. The League has no weight limit for the divisions but there are weight restrictions for each division, if a player is over the weight limit for that division he is "stickered" and must play on the line of scrimmage. The league has grown very rapidly over the last 4 years due to the freedom that each team is allowed to have. Each team is basically run as it's own organization. We play using the same rules as the high schools here in texas with the only modificaiton being with the punt game. They have a website that you can visit, www.texasschooloffootball.com/ The director of the league is a great guy and if you wanted to talk to him about how he runs things I think he would be more than willing to talk to you. I hope this this is the kind of information that you are looking for. Coach Thanks for the info. How popular is the "select" division? Do you follow NCAA rules or NFHS rules? Coach Mike
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Post by mahonz on Jan 10, 2009 12:13:12 GMT -6
mahonz re your out loud wondering about the Piedmont youth level kids... I coach in a PW organization of 350+ kids. Historically, we only get a handful of kids from Piedmont... IMHO there are more Piedmont kids playing soccer and lacrosse than youth football. On another subject, I have long been a proponent of unlimited lineman weights at each age group. I can't tell you how many times I've had to turn a kid away because of his weight... or telling a kid after he works his butt off in August that he didn't certify based on his weight... it just isn't fair. I've also seen the other end of the spectrum...kids who rise through the ranks in PW playing on the line, only to get to high school and find that they arereally strong safety or OSLB size. Even with their playing experience, it can be a BIG adjustment learning to play in space after 7 years in a phonebooth. Just my 2 cents... Coach Thanks for the feedback. I wonder... Do the HS coaches realize what may or may not be happening at the youth levels that feeds their programs?....or is it even an issue. I would assume the HS programs would be more apt to support unlimited weight formats. A… lets get as many of the kids hooked on football as soon as possible approach. Coach Mike
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Post by cyflcoach on Jan 10, 2009 13:29:24 GMT -6
Coach Mike,
Texas High Schools and subsequently most youth leagues in our state utilize NCAA rules.
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Shotgun1
Sophomore Member
It is better to die trying than to quit...
Posts: 214
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Post by Shotgun1 on Jan 10, 2009 22:01:45 GMT -6
Coach, We are involved in a league in the Philly suburbs and we have no weight limits and are surrounde by PW and other various weight leagues ( Bert Bell, KSL, CYO) in the area. We have no weight limits for ball carriers and tackle football starts at age 7, 5-6 is flag. WE have middle school football teams in our local schools so our tackle teams are grouped 7-8, 9-10, 11-12. In our first year many kids that have played for the other organizations have come to our league and we had a total of 170 plus kids playing tackle football. Next year we are expecting around 225 kids and having 3 full teams at each level. The parents and kids understand that we play "real football" compared to weight limit football. I had a coach of local PW team tell me his undefeated team of 9-10 year olds was easily the best team in Eastern PA. After watching one of his playoff games, which he won, I think we would of killed them. Also, every team in the area calls themselves the "premier" youth football team and have weight rules to protect the safety of the kids. I think this is directed at us as an attempt to scare people into playing in their league. If I were them I would be much more afraid of the older-lighter rule!
We use federation rules and the organizations are free to run themselves within those rules and use the start date rules of the PIAA. Great thing is we do not start 8/1 like all the other youth teams, we start the second week in August and the parents love it!
I see the future of football moving in this direction because I have had people from other organizations contact me to feel me out about trying to join our league. I also believe the future of youth sports is moving towards supporting the local school district and youth organizations will be developed to do this. If this occurs you can play all the teams in your league on the same weekend as the high school team plays them.
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