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Post by veerman on Jul 25, 2014 6:51:49 GMT -6
It depends on your overall situation. That's why IMO administration is the most important aspect of building a program. When trying to change the mindset as lots of guys, even myself would like to do. You have to ask yourself, playing the kids that do what I ask, but winning 1-3 games going to allow me to keep my job, will my administration give me time to change the mindset so the more talented kids either change or you know this is a place your talent will never do the things you want them to do so you will always struggle in wins losses category.
My heart wants you to make an example of the kids that do everything and start them.
But my mind when watching my own two little kids playing in the living room that don't understand what it means when daddy gets fired why we have to pick up and move says do what is best for your family. Again that's why it all comes back to your admin situation, if they understand what your trying to do with the program, and will support you during the change process when the scoreboard may struggle then you start the poor talent kids. But if not and you want to keep your job, then I would find other incentives to reward them Big, but may not be playing time.
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dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jul 25, 2014 7:56:32 GMT -6
IMHO you owe it to the kids who show up and work hard in the off-season to put the best team on the field, even if it means starting someone else over those kids. I think when they look at the big picture, those kids would rather work their butts off to be a role player on a playoff team than to work their butts off to start on a 3-6 team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 25, 2014 9:16:18 GMT -6
If that's the case, why even have a summer program? You have a summer program to make your players stronger, faster, bigger, more explosive than the OPPONENTS-- or if you are in a league where other teams have their crap together, at least as strong, fast, big and explosive as your opponents so they start on an even playing field. THAT is how you have to sell S&C. It is not about YOUR team, it is about the 10 OTHER TEAMS! In this particular case, that is the underlying problem. The "talented" players don't recognize the fact that they will have to face 10 OTHER teams!
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Post by freezeoption on Jul 25, 2014 9:56:16 GMT -6
i'll put in, because I have been on both sides of the wheel, and it upsets me to see some holier than thous rip some one, it all depends on admin. and school board, and they can lie or change at any time, the ones that say shouldn't play talent over leadership, then your job hasn't been on the line before based on wins or never had a team where there was little talent, or a team that doesn't lose, I've been at big schools, small schools, schools that were winners, schools that couldn't win, places that gave you time and places where if you lost a game to a certain school you were gone the next season,
when you have a family u need to take care of the family, kids sometimes don't give a crap if you moved your family there to coach them, been there, done that, been lied to enough, so I know it can go both ways, that is why I said find as many places to play that kid as possible so he can fit in somewhere
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 10:38:16 GMT -6
If you give a player a fair shot at winning a job but he's beaten out by a player who gives the team a better chance to win, what's his complaint? If a player like that complains or causes team dissension maybe he's not the team leader that you thought he was.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 13:49:29 GMT -6
i'll put in, because I have been on both sides of the wheel, and it upsets me to see some holier than thous rip some one, it all depends on admin. and school board, and they can lie or change at any time, the ones that say shouldn't play talent killingdership, then your job hasn't been on the line before based on wins or never had a team where there was little talent, or a team that doesn't lose, I've been at big schools, small schools, schools that were winners, schools that couldn't win, places that gave you time and places where if you lost a game to a certain school you were gone the next season, when you have a family u need to take care of the family, kids sometimes don't give a crap if you moved your family there to coach them, been there, done that, been lied to enough, so I know it can go both ways, that is why I said find as many places to play that kid as possible so he can fit in somewhere I've been fired for not winning enough, part of a staff where we went 0-9 and scored 26 points all season, been on a staff that went to the semifinals, and have been a HC of a team that has went 21-2 over the past two years. I'll never play lazy, undedicated talent over a program guy. You are killing yourself if you do IMO.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 13:55:55 GMT -6
If you give a player a fair shot at winning a job but he's beaten out by a player who gives the team a better chance to win, wh complaint? If a player.ike that complains or causes team dissension maybe he's not the team leader that you thoughtif yohe was. So, when this kid doesn't play over a less dedicated, lazy kid with more talent and he asks you why and you say he doesn't give the team the best chance of wining and he questions that decision, he's not a leader? To be a leader he should just shut up and take it? I just don't understand what message you think you're sending the kids if you go that route. Do everything we ask, work harder than those around you, but it doesn't matter if you've got talent.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 14:00:11 GMT -6
If. hat's the case, why even have a summer program? You have a summer program to make your players stronger, faster, bigger, more explosive than the OPPONENTS-- or if you are in a league where other teams have their crap together, at least as strong, fast, big and explosive as your opponents so they start on an even playing field. THAT is how you have to sell S&C. It is not about YOUR team, it is about the 10 OTHER TEAMS! In this particular case, that is the underlying problem. The "talented" players don't recognize the fact that they will have to face 10 OTHER teams! But if kids don't go but still get to start over those that do, why bother having a summer program? Your "talent" isn't going to go because they already know they're going to play. They've already proven they don't care about outworking those on their team, why do you think they'd care about outworking other teams? If you don't even give them a reason to outwork the kids around them, how do you expect them to value outworking other teams?
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 14:00:26 GMT -6
If you give a player a fair shot at winning a job but he's beaten out by a player who gives the team a better chance to win, wh complaint? If a player.ike that complains or causes team dissension maybe he's not the team leader that you thoughtif yohe was. So, when this kid doesn't play over a less dedicated, lazy kid with more talent and he asks you why and you say he doesn't give the team the vest chance of wining and he questions that decision, he's not a leader? To be a leader he should just shut up and take it? I just don't understand what message you think you're sending the kids if you go that route. Do everything we ask, work harder than those around you, but it doesn't matter if you've got talent. If comes and asks I'll tell him the reason. No problem with that. If he pouts, then no, he's not a leader. The idea is for the TEAM to be successful.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 14:03:04 GMT -6
Do you see how the kids will take that though?
How do ever expect the talent to work hard when you're essentially telling them they don't have to?
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 14:11:57 GMT -6
Do you see how the kids will take that though? How do ever expect the talent to work hard when you're essentially telling them they don't have to? Well, it goes back to what d5085 said earlier- we're not working just to earn a starting job. We're working to be better that the other teams.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:14:51 GMT -6
I have not followed the whole thread but there has got to be a way to get the dedicated kid playing time, even if there are more "talented" kids. (I believe that work ethic is a talent also).
OP said he was a two way starter last year. There has got to be a way to start him somewhere on the line. Even if he does not play every down at the position or rotates in and out.
If the OP wants to play the lazy, talented kids also that is his right but I feel he needs to get the dedicated kid a spot and not let him sit behind those kids.
Every year we seem to have a couple of seniors that do what they are supposed to but are not very good. We are usually able go get the kid some PT on offense in the flow of the game. Put them in certain situations or plays. Hell put them at LT and run sweep right. Anything to get a reward and keep the program ethics going.
It is easier to control on offense than D and certain ST.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 14:22:32 GMT -6
Do you see how the kids will take that though? How do ever expect the talent to work hard when you're essentially telling them they don't have to? Well, it goes back to what d5085 said earlier- we're not working just to earn a starting job. We're working to be better that the other teams. But if they're not willing to outwork their team mates for a job, what makes you think they even give two craps about the other teams?
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 14:33:28 GMT -6
Well, it goes back to what d5085 said earlier- we're not working just to earn a starting job. We're working to be better that the other teams. But if they're not willing to outwork their team mates for a job, what makes you think they even give two craps about the other teams? That's what practice and film are for. I will say that this problem isn't one that we've had for a long time. All of our linemen understand that if they want to compete in our league, they need to work in the offseason. We don't have AWOL linemen. Do we have an occasional WR or DB who doesn't work as hard as we'd like in the offseason? Yep, it happens. That's in the offseason, though. If they come to practice and do what they need to do there and are clearly the best player, they play.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 25, 2014 15:17:53 GMT -6
What do define as offseason and season? Meaning, is the summer offseason or do you consider that in season? Just asking for clarification.
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 15:26:22 GMT -6
What do define as offseason and season? Meaning, is the summer offseason or do you consider that in season? Just asking for clarification. Since we can't make anything mandatory until the official season starts in August (Aug. 4 for us) that's what I define as in season.
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Post by veerman on Jul 25, 2014 15:51:26 GMT -6
Think you touched on a point fantom, you have not had to deal with these types of problems. Your talented kids will do extra things to win games and get better (if they practice focused, and watch film). But what about talent that don't give two craps about it, they won't come to summer workouts, won't go hard at practice, which I'm going to guess they won't watch the first min of film to prepare...so if that was the situation what would you do. They are still more talented than other kid.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2014 16:20:10 GMT -6
Think you touched on a point fantom, you have not had to deal with these types of problems. Your talented kids will do extra things to win games and get better (if they practice focused, and watch film). But what about talent that don't give two craps about it, they won't come to summer workouts, won't go hard at practice, which I'm going to guess they won't watch the first min of film to prepare...so if that was the situation what would you do. They are still more talented than other kid.
Can't speak for fantom (nor does he need any one to), but -
You're confusing "talent" with "potential."
Once practice starts, they don't go hard at practice, don't do other preparation (watch films - how can they not if you watch them as Team?) - they don't play.
It's about performance.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 25, 2014 16:22:43 GMT -6
Think you touched on a point fantom, you have not had to deal with these types of problems. Your talented kids will do extra things to win games and get better (if they practice focused, and watch film). But what about talent that don't give two craps about it, they won't come to summer workouts, won't go hard at practice, which I'm going to guess they won't watch the first min of film to prepare...so if that was the situation what would you do. They are still more talented than other kid. I think what fantom was trying to convey is that they have established a situation where the guys that don't do the work, AREN'T better than the guys that do. Granted, that is a situation more common with larger schools.
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2014 16:36:36 GMT -6
Think you touched on a point fantom, you have not had to deal with these types of problems. Your talented kids will do extra things to win games and get better (if they practice focused, and watch film). But what about talent that don't give two craps about it, they won't come to summer workouts, won't go hard at practice, which I'm going to guess they won't watch the first min of film to prepare...so if that was the situation what would you do. They are still more talented than other kid. By state rules we can't make them to come to offseason workouts. Video? We watch our game and some of our opponent as a team. We want them to watch more on Hudl but some don't. At practice if he doesn't go hard in individual he does the rep again. I'm the DC and if somebody doesn't go hard in group or team we do a pursuit drill right then on the spot. I'm in a much better situation that a lot of guys. I coach at a big school in an area with a lot of athletic kids. My position responsibilities are OL and DBs. With OL it's rarely a problem. Just not that kind of kid. With DBs, some may want to slack off at practice but they don't because they know that I can replace them. I wouldn't replace them for not watching video (Frankly, I don't have the time or inclination to check who's watching Hudl) but I will for not knowing their assignments. So, being slack in the offseason isn't necessarily a mortal sin. Slacking in practice is unacceptable. If they won't practice hard I don't trust them to play hard. If I was at a small school maybe we'd have that problem with somebody who's "irreplaceable". Here we don't so I don't know what we'd do if we had 25 kids on the roster.
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Post by veerman on Jul 25, 2014 19:47:23 GMT -6
Good points. I guess I have been in a couple situations at schools were you have small numbers (below 25 and as low as 17) and we struggled with our talented kids (not potential, they were are best players) doing things that would drive you crazy. That's that line I was talking about. Do you keep running them or team to point where they decide to call it quits, and you play the kids that have no chance of winning but go hard? Or do you just make the best of the situation cause those kids give you a chance of winning so you can keep your job?
When it comes to film, you can show all the film you want with team, but that doesn't mean that the lazy talented kids get anything out of it. This could be one of the most frustrating things about our profession, especially in small schools that have very low numbers.
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Post by tim914790 on Jul 25, 2014 19:56:39 GMT -6
IMO if they make the team the best players have to play otherwise you are not giving the team the best chance to win.
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