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Post by blb on Aug 10, 2014 5:48:16 GMT -6
He thinks he's an "offensive genius" and you're going to propose multiple changes to his system?
Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll fire you on the spot.
Otherwise you are going to be the most miserable coach in America for next three months.
To be blunt, bd - at least three of us have suggested you get out NOW. Your response is "But..."
Not much else to say then.
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 10, 2014 6:06:23 GMT -6
At lest get the stones up to be able to tell this guy why it's not working because he IS going to scapegoat you the whole season. You keep taking up for him like he's some saint, but wait a couple more months of him not giving you the resources you need and to coach his 'offense' and then blaming you for it's failure and then get back to us on how good of a coach and/or man he is. If you decide to, yes you can resign and get out now and be none the worse for wear in the future. You may not coach this year, but BFD. Come next spring when people are looking for coaches they're not gonna hold it against you too much if you explain things tactfully in the interview process.
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Post by coach2013 on Aug 10, 2014 6:24:58 GMT -6
I'm doing a lot of soul searching these days about my future in this profession. I've been coaching 5 years, the last 3 at the varsity level. I've never had a lot of responsibility beyond position coach but I study everything I can and try my best to get better and learn as much about the game as I can because I want to be a HC someday. Last year I coached DL on one of the worst defenses in our entire state--we gave up 42 ppg. A lot of people have blamed the guys I coached for our struggles as a defense last year and said they were why our defense sucked. People, including our players, ask me all the time if I even played football in HS, or they are surprised to find out that I did. I wasn't great, but I've loved the game ever since I first strapped on pads at 14. We've had a lot of changes on our staff this year. I've now taken over the OL and DL. We had our first scrimmage today and were awful on OL (DL actually looked really good in our new system, but another guy helped coach them for 2 days so I can't take credit for that) and now everyone is pointing fingers at my linemen as the weak link on the team that's going to kill our whole season again and ruin things for a very talented group of athletes. I've never coached OL before and barely played it in HS, but our previous OL coach had to retire right before the season due to health problems and I was the only one who was willing to take over. Our new offense seems really complicated for the OL, but it's proven to work: our HC had the last .500+ records at this school when he ran it here in the early 2000s and thinks it's very simple. Despite all the work I put into becoming better, to any objective observer it would appear that I'm still just a lousy coach. We have some big, strong kids, but they aren't blocking anybody and I don't know what more I can do to make them better. Very little of the stuff I've studied fits with what we're trying to do. A veteran coach here tells me that I should "just have them fire off onto the guy on them and hold for a count of 3" but then we're mostly running traps (9 different ones) and sweeps (4 different ones with different guys pulling) so that doesn't fit exactly, plus we don't have a base pass protection so I don't know how to teach them the technique or rules for pass blocking. I put them through trap drill every day and they still screw it up royally when we go vs. another team. We now have the most talent this school's had in over a decade, as well as the same proven HC who got them to winning seasons then, but our success all rests on my shoulders as the OL coach. If the position I coach sucks, all that talent is wasted. How does someone go from being the weakest link on the staff to being an asset to his team? What more do I have to do to learn this game and get our kids playing right? How long does it take to get competent when you're constantly working at it yourself but not seeing improvement from your players? Blue- Here is my first reaction to this:
Understand that I have not read the rest of the thread so that my own thoughts aren't impacted by others.
If you just stepped up to coach the OL and had little time to prepare, meet with the HC and OC, that Is as much on them as it is on you. It takes time to learn oline rules and schemes and time to learn HOW TO coach those things. If the oline isn't prepared then the OC and HC have to accept blame and not point fingers at you. I coach my own oline, even though I have an assigned oline coach. I also coach my backs , even though I have an assigned backfield coach. I am the OC even though I have plenty of folks whod love to call plays. Ultimately, everything is on the HC and he should be coaching his assistants and teaching them how to get it done. If you aren't getting it done, blaming you isn't the solution, HELPING YOU is.
You might have an inferiority complex because honestly, your playing background doesn't mean diddly pooh to what you do as a coach. It doesn't mean one thing. stop looking back at what you did as a player and stop listening to anyone who brings that up. It doesn't matter.
What matters is your study and preparation, then your ability to present it to your athletes and make it work. 9 different traps? when you say that, are you referring to 9 different backfield actions or 9 different line schemes? huge difference in its impact on the OLine as a unit.
As the HC for help. Don't accept and shoulder all of the blame if you have not been coached up in how and what to teach. The line firing out and holding is a bull@#$% scheme by bull#$%^ coaches.
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Post by s73 on Aug 10, 2014 6:58:53 GMT -6
Resign.. go be a frosh/jv coach at a legit program.. just what id do But what legit program wants to hire a guy from one of the state's worst, especially when he's the one people blame for ruining their seasons? I spent the past year applying for jobs at other schools. I only got one offer out of that, but I turned it down because the school didn't feel like the right situation to me. I regret that decision now, but it looks like I'm locked in for at least the next year. Coach, Seriously, no "legit" program is going to say an assistant was the cause of another programs woes. LEGIT programs are going to know it starts and ends w/ the guy at the top. I think you're over thinking this. As far as quitting or "letting the kids down" sounds to me like the HC hasn't helped to cultivate much of an atmosphere of respect towards you anyhow. I would have a helluva time coaching kids or for coaches that I felt did not respect me. If what you say is completely true and accurate then it sounds to me as though he may be setting up a scapegoat in case this season goes badly. That really leaves you with 3 choices the way I see it. First, resign (that'd be my move), 2nd find a way to get the oline going and eradicate "your image" (may not be possible unless HC makes some changes), 3rd keep going the way your going and become the scapegoat for a bad leader w/ a worse plan. JMO, good luck. PS - If he came i w/ no pass protection scheme to start with then he won in the past in spite of himself, not b/c of himself.
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Post by lochness on Aug 10, 2014 8:32:05 GMT -6
There's a lot going on here coach...and much has been said already.
Now, I'm not an OL guy...so take everything I'm about to say with that in mind...but I am a HC and OC, and there is NOTHING I value more than the OL play on my team.
Primarily, my input would be (and I mean absolutely NO disrespect) that your 45 minutes of indy is garbage based on what you said you are doing. Almost a total waste of time.
Your indy period must be painstakingly planned and must be meaningful to the skill sets you are trying to work on. Agility bags, hitting the sled, etc are interesting, but are not going to contribute one little bit to fixing your problem.
You need to spend time on a progression to teach blocking technique and assignments.
1. Stance 2. Starts (first steps) 3. Fits (hand / helmet placement, body leverage, etc) 4. Drives (how to move the defender, or counteract his movement) 5. Sustain (how to position your body and use technique to maximize your time in contact with the defender) ...each should be an individual broken down drill that progresses them
Then, you need additional drills to teach assignments and OL working together: 2-on-1's 2-on-2's, practicing various defensive alignments and applying rules against them (who blocks who based on alignment of defenders and rules) 3-on-3's, same as above...this is probably better for your traps, etc. Run Install: a 5 man drill (or 6 or 7 if you use TE's) against various defensive fronts, walking through assignments vs. barrels or kids holding bags.
This is how I'd get started. It takes a TON of planning and pre-work to have a good OL practice period. I think you need to create a plan that incorporates these things, meshed up with whatever installation is taking place, and show the HC and ask him if you can use this format to right the ship. Otherwise, if you're doing bag agilities, driving the sled, and king of the boards kind of stuff...you're just wasting time. You need to teach football.
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2014 9:08:35 GMT -6
Resign.. go be a frosh/jv coach at a legit program.. just what id do But what legit program wants to hire a guy from one of the state's worst, especially when he's the one people blame for ruining their seasons? I spent the past year applying for jobs at other schools. I only got one offer out of that, but I turned it down because the school didn't feel like the right situation to me. I regret that decision now, but it looks like I'm locked in for at least the next year. There's no way that coaching in this "program" this season will affect your career one way or other. The only thing that it will do is sour you further on coaching. You need to press "Reset" on your coaching career. As 5085 said back on page one you learn how to coach by working with good coaches. Get into a good program. Resign tomorrow then call the coaches of good programs in your area and beg your way in. Volunteer if you have to. Take the freshman level job if you have to. Do the ethical thing. If possible, go to a program that doesn't play this team. If that's not possible, leave your playbook behind (Any good staff would only use it for entertainment purposes anyway). Do it like a man, like you'd expect a kid to do, and hand the HC your playbook and tell him that you quit. If you get on a good staff, guys who you like and know what they're doing, you might be surprised at how much fun this job can be.
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 10, 2014 9:27:25 GMT -6
I'm with the others on this. This guy is NOT a good coach. He might be a good person, but you are most definitely going to be the fall guy this season if you stay where you are at. A season of misery is not worth it at all imo. As others have said, I would resign and take a volunteer position at a real program if I had to. Don't waste an entire season being miserable.
With your desire to be a good coach, there are plenty of staffs out there who would love to bring you on. I honestly think you'd learn more running a freshman team at a legit program than you would working varsity with this guy.
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Post by coachorm on Aug 10, 2014 9:42:03 GMT -6
Have to agree with the rest of the board. This HC is not a good coach. I, myself am an OC and played line in HS and College. The OL is the most important offensive group on the field. This guy needs to trim the fat from this collection of plays. We currently have a wedge scheme, reach scheme, trap scheme, and a max protect blocking scheme. Probably gonna add a quick pass blocking scheme this week. The OL we have right now due to injuries is made up of guys we call science projects. Because its amazing that they can even walk and communicate much less play football. BUt guess what we move the ball because it is so freakin simple to play line for us. You need to voice your concerns to this HC and if he doesn't change move on somewhere else even if you take a year off. Besides it sounds like you have some leverage since the staff is small and no one else was willing to take OL. Maybe he is calling your bluff and believes you wont leave no matter what he does. Of course I cant see this HC being smart enough to develop a theory like that.
Good Luck Coach cause you will need it if you stay.
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orion320
Sophomore Member
"Don't tell me about the labor just show me the baby!"
Posts: 211
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Post by orion320 on Aug 10, 2014 10:16:25 GMT -6
I would say you cut down the amount of indy time and spend more times on the schemes. I know the HC wants all of the drills but do you have to do them every day? I used to be a line coach and we never did bag drills. We focused a lot on the different blocking techniques we would be using against the opponents defensive scheme.
I would also create a blocking matrix each week for your kids so that they can study their rules during the days leading up to the games.
I would approach the coach and say your piece about changing things and if he is a good coach he will let you do things your way. The good HC's I have seen and worked with allow the position coaches to do/coach the way they want to coach. I've been a varsity assistant for 6 years and I have never had an HC tell me "you have to do these drills." They have suggestions and I always clarify what and why I am doing something and they okay with that.
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Post by bluedevil58 on Aug 10, 2014 10:29:56 GMT -6
I'm going to meet with him tomorrow and lay out the things I mentioned earlier in this thread. Our last scrimmage is proof that w need to make some changes. Since he was never picky about blocking rules to begin with, cutting things down to 4 run schemes (short trap, long trap, IZ, and OZ) and a core 1/2 slide pass protection for all the plays he wants to run might fly.
If he doesn't work with me on those things, then I'm going to tell him I just can't coach OL in his system the way he wants it done and ask that he have someone else do it while I remain on staff and continue to coach DL. Maybe the DC who likes to jump in and coach them to do different things will want it, since he's currently without a position on offense.
If that's not good enough, then I'll walk away.
I teach at this school. Our current HC is also my principal. That's why he retired from coaching. If I step down from football, he will still be my boss in the classroom and will be handling my evaluations. That also makes me nervous.
I have no qualms about coaching freshman or JV ball. I applied for a bunch of those jobs this summer and only got one offer, though.
It'll work out, I suppose. I could just land a teaching job somewhere else next year and go back to coaching for free like I did my first couple of years.
Thank you for helping me get some perspective.
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Post by bluedevil58 on Aug 10, 2014 10:50:13 GMT -6
He thinks he's an "offensive genius" and you're going to propose multiple changes to his system? Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll fire you on the spot. Otherwise you are going to be the most miserable coach in America for next three months. To be blunt, bd - at least three of us have suggested you get out NOW. Your response is "But..." Not much else to say then. True. Thank you for the perspective. The thing is, football or not, he's still going to be my principal this year. I'm going to be working for him regardless and he will be handling my evaluations. With school already starting back, it's too late in the game to leave for another teaching job. I might be able to see if our union rep can get the other assistant principals to do those instead, though. The head of the local chapter works in our building. Monday will bring the verdict.
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 10, 2014 11:37:16 GMT -6
Hell you could always scrap the bag and board drills and run indy the way you know you need to. What's he gonna do, fire you? If he doesn't have blocking rules how are you teaching it? If you do stay, come up with your own set of rules that have as much carry over as possible between plays and teach them. I hate seeing an apparently young guy with a lot of passion and potential being stuck in spots like this.
Btw, I played one year of high school football as a 5'5" 120 lb scout team fullback. Ended up being OC on the first playoff team in 25 years at our high school (running ONLY inside zone, outside zone, trap, and slide and BOB pass pro). What you did or didn't play back then is irrelevant.
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Post by bluedevil58 on Aug 10, 2014 12:24:38 GMT -6
Hell you could always scrap the bag and board drills and run indy the way you know you need to. What's he gonna do, fire you? If he doesn't have blocking rules how are you teaching it? If you do stay, come up with your own set of rules that have as much carry over as possible between plays and teach them. I hate seeing an apparently young guy with a lot of passion and potential being stuck in spots like this. Btw, I played one year of high school football as a 5'5" 120 lb scout team fullback. Ended up being OC on the first playoff team in 25 years at our high school (running ONLY inside zone, outside zone, trap, and slide and BOB pass pro). What you did or didn't play back then is irrelevant. I got fussed at one day by the DC/HC-in-waiting because I didn't start out with bag drills like I was told. I moved them to later in the schedule because our RB coach asked me to. We start practice off with 30 min. of team stretching and conditioning anyway. The HC didn't lay out the whole offense when we started installing it. He gave me a few plays here and a few plays there, then I came up with blocking rules for them to run by him based off the drawings he showed me (all against a 4-3). He was usually ok with whatever I said there. Then the new DC/future HC came in and we put in a few of his MS plays, which he wants run a certain way that seems unsound, and he'll jump in and coach the OL the way he did at the MS regardless of the schemes we are running. The thing about "never playing" (I was a 3 year starter in HS at a different school in another part of our state) wouldn't bother me if I didn't know it came from somewhere within and was undermining my authority to the kids. I'm pretty sure I know who it is and he's not even a coach, just a volunteer manager who's never liked me and hurts us more than he helps.
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Post by flyinghelmet on Aug 10, 2014 12:26:39 GMT -6
From one young OL guy to another, that entire situation sounds miserable. If my head coach didn't know more about the oline than I did, I would be worried. If he didnt't care, didn't fix anything, and just bitched at me? I would be gone so fast. Sorry, it's not worth that. You are being set up as a fall guy.
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 10, 2014 12:46:42 GMT -6
I think a meeting is good, but I would still get your resume ready. He is in charge of you both ways so he will probably make it tough. He will probably disrespect you on d line also. You are in a pickle, but explaining in the meeting how you feel and how he can help you. Help me help you is a good statement. If he helps you it helps him. I stated the scapegoat thing early on.
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Post by blb on Aug 10, 2014 13:07:53 GMT -6
The thing is, football or not, he's still going to be my principal this year. I'm going to be working for him regardless and he will be handling my evaluations. With school already starting back, it's too late in the game to leave for another teaching job. I might be able to see if our union rep can get the assistant principals to do those instead, though. The head of the local chapter works in our building.
In an an earlier post you said your principal was a "She."
Why would a volunteer manager not like you because you played HS football somewhere else years ago, and your players buy it?
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Post by bluedevil58 on Aug 10, 2014 13:44:05 GMT -6
In an an earlier post you said your principal was a "She."
Why would a volunteer manager not like you because you played HS football somewhere else years ago, and your players buy it?
Our actual principal is a woman, but he's "my principal," meaning he's the assistant principal I work directly under with the way things are organized at our school. Each assistant principal has a certain hallway and manages all the evaluations and non-disciplinary stuff there. ALL the discipline issues for the school go through him. He'd always been good to me in the 2 previous years I worked for him as a teacher. As for the other guy, your guess is as good as mine. He also takes weird dislikes to players and chews them out a lot over nothing. He's stupid and hurts us more than he helps, so he might be told to leave soon even if he does cut the grass and do the grunt work for free.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 10, 2014 13:58:50 GMT -6
Find an identity. Smart, strong, nasty...whatever. Get them Hogs to understand what they need to do and get them to do it in the fashion of your identity.
Knowing the assignment is great, but then not accepting mediocrity while practicing it...to me is one of the keys to success. Don't give out the "good jobs" if it wasn't a good job.
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Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2014 15:29:31 GMT -6
In an an earlier post you said your principal was a "She."
Why would a volunteer manager not like you because you played HS football somewhere else years ago, and your players buy it?
Our actual principal is a woman, but he's "my principal," meaning he's the assistant principal I work directly under with the way things are organized at our school. Each assistant principal has a certain hallway and manages all the evaluations and non-disciplinary stuff there. ALL the discipline issues for the school go through him. He'd always been good to me in the 2 previous years I worked for him as a teacher. As for the other guy, your guess is as good as mine. He also takes weird dislikes to players and chews them out a lot over nothing. He's stupid and hurts us more than he helps, so he might be told to leave soon even if he does cut the grass and do the grunt work for free. I wish that you'd mentioned that the HC was your principal in your OP because that changes things. If resigning from coaching can mess with your day job, I'm not sure that it's a great option. You may need to live through three months of misery coaching to avoid a whole school year of misery (plus I don't know if you have tenure).
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 10, 2014 15:31:14 GMT -6
Our actual principal is a woman, but he's "my principal," meaning he's the assistant principal I work directly under with the way things are organized at our school. Each assistant principal has a certain hallway and manages all the evaluations and non-disciplinary stuff there. ALL the discipline issues for the school go through him. He'd always been good to me in the 2 previous years I worked for him as a teacher. As for the other guy, your guess is as good as mine. He also takes weird dislikes to players and chews them out a lot over nothing. He's stupid and hurts us more than he helps, so he might be told to leave soon even if he does cut the grass and do the grunt work for free. I wish that you'd mentioned that the HC was your principal in your OP because that changes things. If resigning from coaching can mess with your day job, I'm not sure that it's a great option. You may need to live through three months of misery coaching to avoid a whole school year of misery (plus I don't know if you have tenure). Agreed--- suck it up..kiss some butt..apologize profusely and send out resumes like crazy.
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Post by carookie on Aug 10, 2014 21:35:38 GMT -6
Side note, I coached LB for a guy who literally had over 15 coverages. Any time a kid had an ME in regards to coverage he'd get on me about needing to coach them up; I'd already learned from other examples that he wasn't gonna deviate from his plans or listen to advice (so getting him to not have so many coverages wasnt gonna happen). But I did pay attention to what he did call (about 80% of the time it was one of three coverages), eventually guess what I repped in indy time.
Maybe, if your oc/hc calls some things more than others you can rep those more often.
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Post by coach2013 on Aug 11, 2014 2:50:59 GMT -6
Ok I read the other posts.
don't beast yourself up. It takes a thick skin to be a football coach.
you need a plan to train your guys and take pride in what you teach and how you teach it. fake it til ya make it in this business.
if its scheme issues/assignment issues, then focus on those things getting the kids to go in the right direction...work on it until they can go through their assignments in their sleep
when they are all going the right way,. then work on how to make the blocks/refine technique
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2014 5:16:57 GMT -6
If the DC-azzhole in waiting is watching to see you do bag drills - do one each day, two reps each kid, or do 'em all, one rep each at start if Individual.
Then start teaching your kids WHO and how to block.
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Post by utchuckd on Aug 11, 2014 6:57:23 GMT -6
I got fussed at one day by the DC/HC-in-waiting because I didn't start out with bag drills like I was told. I moved them to later in the schedule because our RB coach asked me to. We start practice off with 30 min. of team stretching and conditioning anyway. The HC didn't lay out the whole offense when we started installing it. He gave me a few plays here and a few plays there, then I came up with blocking rules for them to run by him based off the drawings he showed me (all against a 4-3). He was usually ok with whatever I said there. Then the new DC/future HC came in and we put in a few of his MS plays, which he wants run a certain way that seems unsound, and he'll jump in and coach the OL the way he did at the MS regardless of the schemes we are running. The thing about "never playing" (I was a 3 year starter in HS at a different school in another part of our state) wouldn't bother me if I didn't know it came from somewhere within and was undermining my authority to the kids. I'm pretty sure I know who it is and he's not even a coach, just a volunteer manager who's never liked me and hurts us more than he helps. Man, you're gonna have so much fun when you get on a good staff.
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Post by dubber on Aug 11, 2014 8:37:15 GMT -6
Coach bd,
You are starting to sound like a victim in this whole thing.
You can choose to not do that.
Respectfully.
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Post by coachphillip on Aug 11, 2014 9:06:35 GMT -6
This is the same situation as the MS coach in waiting who undermines you and your schemes in front of kids? This is the same situation as the HC who you says doesn't respect you? This is going to be a long season, coach.
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 11, 2014 12:09:23 GMT -6
BD, if you don't mind me asking, what state are you in? PM me if you would be interested in moving to coach football and what you're certified to teach.
I'd love to have someone like you on our staff.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2014 12:16:03 GMT -6
He's really big on the agilities, and King of Boards. I don't care if the man won 37 straight national championships. The fact that these are two of his three "key" drills for OL just proves that he is a complete dumbass as a coach. What a monumental waste of time, not just if you did them once a month, but the fact that he has you do them EVERY day is dumbfounding. That being said, if you don't want to resign due to your teaching situation, your life is about to reach monumental levels of suck. Sorry. You're coaching for a dumbass. I don't care what his record says (which, by the way, does back up my statement). Being the world's tallest midget doesn't mean you're tall.
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Post by bluedevil58 on Aug 11, 2014 23:03:06 GMT -6
So, I met with the HC.
We were mutually respectful. He said he wants me as his OL coach. I get to plan my own indie time now. He also said he'll handle the other guy and we can now stop switching our stances.
But he won't change the system beyond that at this time, not even by slightly changing the verbiage to clarify blocking for the OL. I expected as much. He thinks that using a different lineup will fix our problems. He did mention possibly simplifying things down the road if lineup changes don't fix if. I'm not crossing my fingers on that.
After watching film with him, it wasn't as terrible as it seemed at the time. Our pass block technique was ok for the most part, but without a coherent protection scheme no one was picking up blitzers. The QBs also struggled and brought a lot of sacks on themselves with bad footwork.
He wants get off and aggression emphasized more. We were slow off the ball and the tackles were especially passive. We ran 1 good trap play and 1 good sweep in the entire scrimmage, but we were playing up 2 levels in competition. He blamed the talent of our opponent for most of our struggles in the run game.
It wasn't everything I'd hoped for, but if he keeps it professional like this I'll be able to survive the season.
Thanks for the advice.
Also, my resume is now updated.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 12, 2014 7:01:44 GMT -6
I coached OL for a grip. Here's my drills:
*Duck walk thru chute (good time to fix stance issues) *Right and left lead thru chute (focus on steps and height) *Right and left zone thru chute (focus on steps and height) *Driving a bagman out of the chute (focus on leverage, punch, driving feet)
Then we come out and drive the sled with each step-lead and zone (focus on leg drive, punch)
Then we work on combo blocks (2 OL, 1 DL-1LB). (Focus on communication, getting to 2nd level)
After the fundies, we go over our offense. We walk thru each play with 1's and 2's.
When the QB/WR go to pass skel, the OL/RB work on pass pro vs blitzes, stunts, twists whatever.
Then we go to team.
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