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Post by natenator on Feb 27, 2015 7:18:56 GMT -6
Does anyone else find it odd that we expect kids to hit each other with maximum speed and intensity on Friday nights but give them basically no opportunity to practice a pretty technical skill? We haven't taken runners to the ground in many years so the new rules have had no real effect on us. When we tackle we hit hard, roll the hips, club the arms, and run through. The only think that we don't do is take the runner to the ground. That's the easy part. How do you not take a player to the ground if you are hitting hard, rolling hips, clubbing, and driving through them?
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Post by mrjvi on Feb 27, 2015 7:46:26 GMT -6
He may go to the ground through the contact but a chest to chest hit keeps him from being cut down through the legs.
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Post by forcecoach on Mar 1, 2015 8:49:43 GMT -6
I might have missed this along the way bug what does thud mean? I am not aware of this. we do OL/DL live buck generally very quick whistles.
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Post by lions23 on Mar 1, 2015 9:47:58 GMT -6
We turn our pants in after hell week. We go full go 2 or 3 times during hell week scrimmages and inner squad. We go full go in inside drills at camps a few times in the summer.
However we tackle everyday. We do things in the weight room, we do drill work in our agility sessions that simulate tackling on bags and dummies. We do tackling and turnover everyday. As the DC I always tell my boss we will never miss an opportunity to work tackling in practice. Any extra time we have we work some sort of tackling drills.
We do feel like most of the injuries occur when you go to the ground.
We feel like we can teach drill work well enough that we don't need to go to the ground. It happens bc of momentum sometimes but we try to avoid especially on our ones. Our RB was a 2000 yard rusher last year and I would have been sick if he got injured in practice.
Tackling has a ton to do with good angles and hip flexibility. We don't need to beat the p*ss out of our guys to teach that.
Our lineman are always going full speed and we have quick whistles on our first group of skills. We have never had issues with being physical.
We place a prime on staying healthy for the long run into the playoffs. That TB barely made through our 4 games in the playoffs. I can't imagine the punishment he takes if we are going full go in practice on him 2-3 more days a week.
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Post by irishdog on Mar 1, 2015 9:54:51 GMT -6
We teach blocking and tackling during our "FUNdamentals" period at every practice. I'm at a small school so we do it as a TEAM so each coach and every player sees how it should be taught and executed properly. Because we're a small school we do both blocking and tackling during our FUNdamentals period on Mondays, tackling during our defensive practice on Tuesday, and blocking during our offensive practice on Wednesday. Everything we do is taught up high, in a progression, and THUD only. We can't afford to lose kids in practices. When we practice defending cut blocks, and using cut blocks we use bags. We have not lost kids to injury during practices using this method of teaching the FUNdamentals of the game.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 1, 2015 11:37:36 GMT -6
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Post by coachmonkey on Mar 2, 2015 8:00:44 GMT -6
In Wisconsin the WIAA has layed out 4 types of contact. We are limited as to how much contact we have. As was mentioned in another thread, the reason a lot of teams suck at tackling is because of bad leverage. We don't do a lot of live tackling in practice. We are limited by the WIAA, and, we just don't have the numbers to take the risk. We have been quite successful doing it this way, but it may not work for someone else. We are not hitting live, but we are in full pads 4 days per week. Air – Players should run unopposed without bags or any opposition. Bags - Activity is executed against a bag, shield or pad to allow for soft contact surface, with or without the resistance of a teammate or coach behind the bag. Wrap or Control - Drills run at full speed until contact, which is above the waist with players remaining on their feet. Thud - Same as wrap, but tempo is competitive with no pre-determined winner and players are not tackling to the ground. Live - Full contact is defined as football drills or live game simulations where live action occurs - game speed where players execute full tackles at competitive pace taking players to the ground. Week 1 - only air, bags and wrap are allowed. Thud and Live are not allowed (just helmet first 2 days - helmet/shoulder pads days 3, 4 & 5). Week 2 - 75 minutes of thud/live, air bags and wrap are unlimited. Week 3 - 60 minutes of thud/live. air, bags and wrap are unlimited. And this is part of why we do what we do. If you coach high school, get ready, it will be coming to your state as well.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 2, 2015 15:22:39 GMT -6
How did they come to these definitions and rules?
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Post by coachmonkey on Mar 2, 2015 21:15:06 GMT -6
How did they come to these definitions and rules? No idea, but I think it started with a pending lawsuit in CA, soon to come tall all 50 states. We followed the guidelines and I don't really think we had any drop off. We rarely went live prior to that anyway.
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 2, 2015 23:29:51 GMT -6
So no rational basis is known for these recommendations?
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Post by coachbdud on Mar 2, 2015 23:33:37 GMT -6
I want to add that on O this year i went team on Air 90% of the time at most we would go a very quick thud whistle 1 day a week
most weeks all team was done on air
scout team usually sucks, we are still physical and work in our indy time i give us a TON of indy time... much more valuable to me than team.
Were we soft? heck no we broke every school rushing record in history, for both an individual player, and as a team
defensively we often went thud, NEVER full tackled in a team setting (all tackling was during tackling drills) and this was the best tackling team we have had in the 5 years i have been here
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Post by John Knight on Mar 3, 2015 5:50:53 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Mar 3, 2015 6:20:50 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Mar 3, 2015 6:25:55 GMT -6
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Post by forcecoach on Mar 3, 2015 8:35:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the explanations
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Post by coachmonkey on Mar 4, 2015 9:42:50 GMT -6
Going back to the original point. In Lou Tepper's book Complete Linebacking he writes "We practice tackling daily, yet 90% of tackling is desire. We teach the 10%, but the rest comes from the heart and repitition. Usually, he who wants to tackle, tackles... We do much fewer live tackling drills than I did early in my career. Now most of our tackling drills are for form only, without putting the runner to the ground."
He goes on to talk about the Triangle Tackling Concept (or keeping the cup), is crucial to tackling success. We don't do a lot of live tackling, but we have a pretty good defense. Our mentality on defense is probably the reason we are able to not do a lot of live hitting or tackling. I like to keep my dog's chained up until it's time to defend their turf.
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Post by RoCro23 on Mar 4, 2015 12:26:13 GMT -6
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Post by coachmonkey on Mar 4, 2015 12:53:36 GMT -6
Yep, I played against them. Once in the playoffs, and once in the regular season. However, I'd like to assume college kids should know how to tackle by the time they hit the college level.
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Post by fbs on Mar 4, 2015 13:58:08 GMT -6
I feel like you have to have at least some live elements to your practice... even if it's just a few segments in a week. the only time they hit and actually tackle can't just be when the lights come on. It's a matter of winning and losing games. When a defense can't stop anyone, the first thing you hear is "we don't wrap up" or "too many arm tackles"... guess why that is? What if, as an Oline coach, I told my guys "ok, we are gonna run the power every play this game, but we aren't going to block it at all until the game..."? Would that make sense? Or your QB's can't throw until the game because you want to save their arms? Look I understand the point of the discussion, but you're actually putting the kids at more risk by not working on the most dangerous part of the game.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 4, 2015 15:32:19 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on Mar 4, 2015 15:44:15 GMT -6
I a a believer in the theory that once a kid proves he will hit and tackle he doesn't need to practice it. The biggest problem that happens in many practices is that you often get the non hitters in a drill with the hitters and someone gets hurt. If you are going to do live drills it should be done only with the guys that won't hit. Keep your hitters out of those live drills, I think it really makes them better because by Friday night the real hitters will be Jonesin' for the collisions!
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Post by funkfriss on Mar 16, 2015 12:53:00 GMT -6
I think coaches have to do their jobs and decide what is best for his team. We have had teams with awful tacklers where we felt we needed live tackling in order to be prepared for games, and we have had teams full of kids who love to be physical and we had to scale back contact in practice or we would have killed each other. Best judgement is the order, but I don't think you can be AFRAID to tackle in practice. I think kids pick up on this feeling. BTW the worst injury I have witnessed in a practice was 2 kids on a punt coverage drill with no pads/helmets/contact whose heads collided while both were looking up at the ball - double concussions and blood everywhere.
As important as tackling is, I think taking a hit is even more important. How many coach the "art" of taking a hit? How are you doing it?
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Post by gabehc16 on Mar 16, 2015 13:12:08 GMT -6
There are numerous ways to attack this question. For every team that doesn't tackle at all and won a state championship there is a team that tackles all the time in practice and wins state championships. I think this all comes down to a cultural question. What is the culture of your team? What types of players do you have and what skills do you need to cultivate in them? Some teams you coach some years might be extremely physical by nature and so you don't have to be physical in practice and can save on injuries and contact. Other years you might have a very soft team and need to create opportunities in practice for them to cultivate toughness etc. I know of two teams in our state that have won MULTIPLE (a lot) state championships that literally do not tackle...ever. They may practice tackling circuits etc but their running backs for instance never get tackled. The first time that kid will get tackled to the ground is in the first game of the season. Say what you want, but both of these teams are two of the most physically dominant teams in our state and tackle with some of the best fundamentals around. I'm sure you could find other teams that do the exact opposite and have similar results.
Personally, I fall somewhere in the middle of those two schools of thought. If you have a team full of guys that can flat out play football, your #1 job is to get them to the game on Friday night healthy and at 100%. In order to do that, you can't tackle during the week (or you have to do it sparingly). If you have a super young team, chances are you aren't a good tackling team and probably need to tackle a lot in practice. Then when those guys get older and are seniors, you probably can take the other approach. I air on the side of caution when it comes to contact in practice. Especially on the guys that touch the ball 20+ times a game. If we have a stud running back, no one will tackle him in practice. What's the point if he doesn't get to play on Friday night?
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brmurf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 93
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Post by brmurf on Mar 17, 2015 8:09:15 GMT -6
This might be the best thread I have read on this site, meaningful info for me. The state of Tn just issued new rules this past week for us limiting us to 90 min of live work a week. I was in a panic and trying to think how to adjust as we pride ourselves on our physical play. OUr kids have to beleive that they are the most physical team in our conference or we will be a bad team, as we cant win any track meets (generally slowest team in our league). The ideas I learned from this thread coupled with the new tackling drills I learned from the Seahawks video should help us keep our identity. Thanks to everyone who posted here!
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brmurf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 93
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Post by brmurf on Mar 18, 2015 7:53:28 GMT -6
One other thing of note, we went to the Chip Kelley practice format of going in Shells on Thurs (usesd to just lift and do a walk through) and it paid nbig dividends for us the past season as the boys thought it really helped going "live" or thud the day before a game. We backed off some hitting on Wed in an effort to remain fresh, and then helmets and shoulder pads on thurs and lengthened that pract by about 30 min. has anyone else done this?
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Post by hsrose on Apr 13, 2015 14:04:55 GMT -6
Regarding the no-contact law in CA: I had a conversation with the AD last Friday and his take is that the football community, including the CIF (showed me some CIF documents that apparently aren't published yet) are converging on the idea that the only thing that will constitute full contact will be full speed tackle to the ground. Everything up to that point, including thud, is not full-speed contact. I thought that was pretty strange. Then I go pick up the football mail and one of the items is a camp brochure saying that they were still going to have their camp because it was not going to be full contact, it was going to be thud only. And that was dated late February so this has been in work for a good time.
What this means is that for all practical purposes we will never be in full contact mode, except for maybe some goal line times.
It's now mid-April and we have yet to have any definitive clarification(s) from the CIF or section.
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Post by coachbdud on Apr 13, 2015 17:58:10 GMT -6
Regarding the no-contact law in CA: I had a conversation with the AD last Friday and his take is that the football community, including the CIF (showed me some CIF documents that apparently aren't published yet) are converging on the idea that the only thing that will constitute full contact will be full speed tackle to the ground. Everything up to that point, including thud, is not full-speed contact. I thought that was pretty strange. Then I go pick up the football mail and one of the items is a camp brochure saying that they were still going to have their camp because it was not going to be full contact, it was going to be thud only. And that was dated late February so this has been in work for a good time. What this means is that for all practical purposes we will never be in full contact mode, except for maybe some goal line times. It's now mid-April and we have yet to have any definitive clarification(s) from the CIF or section. At the CIF thing at UC Davis they specifically said thud isn't allowed Tackling to the ground doesn't cause concussions/brain issues, it's the contact
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Post by hsrose on Apr 13, 2015 18:41:48 GMT -6
Not disputing what was presented at the February meeting, only that I've got a brochure stating this and my Ad saying the same thing. I don't trust the brochure, in spite of it's assurances that they are working with CIF and have it all worked out. But if my AD is confused then I'm confused.
One of the pages the AD gave me states that 'For the purposes of this bylaw, refer to the definition of "Live Action" as defined by USA football.' Not the NFHS definition which considers Thud to be full-contact. In the 1901.B Policy Page it says that 'Live action is defined by USA Football as a drill run in game like conditions and is the only time that players are taken to the ground. Thud is a drill run at an assigned speed through the moment of contact with no pre-determined winner. Contact remains above the waist and players stay on their feet. Thud is considered full-contact by the NFHS.'
In this I would say that Thud is full-contact, by NFHS definition, but that's not the definition they referred to in the other page. So how to interpret this? You say Thud is not allowed, and I can buy that, not that big of a deal. But then I need to get better paperwork/clarification, the pages I have are from the February meeting and state that the USA Football definition is what is to be used. Of course, since CIF is a member of the NFHS they could be implying that the NFHS definition of Thud is to be used, but then why muddy things by specifying the USA Football definition?
Bottom line is that I'm looking for much clearer specifications on what CIF, and the law, is expecting to be done. And who is going to enforce it - CIF or the local sheriff. And yeah, I'm a 30+ year software system engineer who deals with the small details of requirements all the time so things like this documentation just confuse me.
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Post by funkfriss on Feb 10, 2016 13:45:11 GMT -6
Questions I want to pose on this topic:
1. Are there any out there who went away from live tackling, but then went back to it? I've heard/seen a lot of teams go away from live tackling and say it didn't effect their tackling, but made them fresher. Anybody have an adverse situation?
2. How would you look to improve team tackling without going live? I understand that you can improve your angles, technique, fundamentals, etc. but to me that equates to the kid who can drain 3-pointers in an empty gym, but can't get a shot off in a game because he doesn't practice it at game speed and his shot is too slow and doesn't translate to the live game.
3. I'm sure many people will say you get all of this by going "thud." I have 2 problems/questions with thud. How do you keep the kids competitive with it? "Thud" turns to "crud" very quickly in our practices. Second, do you expect your smaller tacklers to go "thud" against bigger ball carriers? I would never want my 150 lb Corner thudding our 190 lb FB or even our 170 lb RB, he'll get destroyed. To me it gives him bad habits.
Thoughts?
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Post by bluboy on Feb 10, 2016 17:15:41 GMT -6
We do not tackle live. First, we do a 15 minute tackling station every Monday, with one of the stations being a mat tackle. This is probably the closest thing we do to live tackling. We usually do tackling drills every day with ball carrier holding a shield, and all tackling drills are position specific. We have the tackler "club-up" the ball carrier and drive him. In group and team sessions, we "club-up" the ball carrier and try to strip the ball. One reason we do this is to reinforce body control (which is a big issue with our kids). The games we have lost are not the result of not being able to tackle.
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