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Post by coachcb on Nov 30, 2016 9:01:34 GMT -6
You will almost always follow all of a combination of the following factors when you take over a program:
1. The coaching was poor under the previous staff. This isn't just about teaching the game to the kids; accountability and discipline were low. 2. Numbers in the program are down. 3. Weight room attendance and winter and spring sports participation is low. Or, there is one dominant sport in the school and the kids have specialized in it. 4. Community and school involvement is crap or toxic. There might not be a lack of involvement, there might be over-involvement. Some of these losing programs have a revolving door of coaches. The community is still stuck on the glory days, thirty years ago, and cans a coach every year or two. The coaching staff does't take a team from 0-10 to the play-offs in one or two season and they're gone. 5. The administration is either micro-managing or non-existent. 6. They're in a conference filled with tough teams and there's only going to be one-two games that they have a chance of winning unless things turn-around. It's hard to get anyone to buy into the program when your success is defined by winning a maximum of two-three games per season within the first few years.
So, you only have control over #1. You can try to influence the rest of them in various ways (well, not #5..) but this is hit or miss. There are successful turn arounds but many things need to fall into place to truly get a bad program back into the mix.
I'm coming across as a serious pessimist in this post but I've taken over a poor program that only had a few of the six issues above. The kids received quality coaching and a solid framework for discipline and accountability but we dealt with issues virtually every single day.
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Post by newhope on Dec 6, 2016 10:02:19 GMT -6
Having made pretty much a career of taking over bad programs and, for the most part, turning them around, there's a lot of truth in these posts. I took over my most difficult challenge two years ago. Let me tell you, it has been difficult. We're a heck of a lot better, but we're still a long way from good. We've improved on the field, in the classroom, in the weight room, in the halls, in the community--but we have a long way left to go and I'm not sure we'll get there. The problems run deeper than I knew--and that is sometimes the case. You might also want to make sure that the administration that is committing to you and what you need to do is going to be there long enough for you to get the job done.
As some have said, make sure you know what the problems are in advance of taking the job. Realistically look at what you can fix. Don't take the job because you think you're god's gift to coaching and you're just going to x and o or motivate your way out the mess that place is in. That's generally not going to happen unless the reason they're not successful is that the previous coaching staff just sucked. If that's the problem, yeah, you can fix it that way. But more often than not, it's institutional, particularly if the place has never had success or hasn't for a very long time. So, figure out the problems in advance and see whether or not you have the solution. If it's weight room, is administration going to support you in getting them in there? Easier to say I'm going to get them in there than it actually is to do it--unless they're going to help you get them scheduled in weight training classes. Around here, you don't have "football class" and so getting your kids into weight training classes that are not just 'general population' is going to require you to convince administration why it's necessary and get guidance onboard with scheduling them. Easier said than done. Getting a quality staff will be a second factor. Again, you can't do that on your own. You've got to have administrative help.
You're going to not only need to convince players to buy in, but parents as well. In my experience, you can get buy in from players and change their mindset a lot easier than you can parents, administration and faculty. Most of the time, you're not going to get to be the AD, bring in your own staff, hire all the other coaches in the school, and have unlimited funds to work with.
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Post by hsrose on Dec 6, 2016 12:21:09 GMT -6
RE: Problems running deeper - I just got a good shot of that last night at our awards/recognition night. Took over the program last year, 4-6, this year we were 6-5 with a 1st round playoff loss. 1st time to playoffs since 2007. Biggest issue has been trying to change the culture here. Been working a lot of things to combat the 'we're nice so it's ok for us to suck' attitude. Thought it was mostly the players, and they are coming around. I didn't know that the admin side was so into that as well.
Last night my DL coach, who is an 11-year Assistant Principal here, was MC'ing the affair. When he volunteered so quickly at our awards meeting I should have known something was up. He's the one that told me that he could not support me as the HC because of my anger management issues.
I look up and he's got the script, which has the 'official' roster, and there is a guy in the varsity line that was booted from the team by the admin for failing a drug test. He was a big time help on the DL, if he had stayed good we would have won two more games and likely a couple of playoff games, he was that missing link that made the whole DL/front a lot better. So the kid is up in the line like nothing ever happened. DL coach talks about him like he was still on the team, just had an 'unfortunate incident' and that was all he said about that. Him being there is not an accident, he hasn't been on my distribution lists and communications.
So here I am, watching this, going "What are we recognizing here, what are we rewarding?" I'm still trying to get my head around this. So the Admin takes the player away for being stupid, and yet another part of the Admin, an AP, brings the kid up and rewards him as if nothing had happened. He did the same thing with a JV player that got booted for grades.
Now I'm realizing that this 'we're nice' attitude is much more deeply ingrained in the culture here than I ever imagined. It's not just the students, it's fully in the admin & staff side of things. I also don't know whether this was a full frontal assault on me and my position, or it's just something that "we" do here - "We don't care that you pimped over all your teammates by doing stupid stuff, just come on back for a big group hug."
This is why they pay me the big bucks.
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Post by veerfan on Dec 6, 2016 14:28:07 GMT -6
Obviously I don't know your "schedule" (amount of TIME you have), and I could not "tailor" my program for others, but all I can say is do as much as you CAN! If you are a HIGH SCHOOL Coach - I believe what Bob Ladecour says is IMPORTANT: "If your players are in baseball (sitting on the bench spitting sunflower seeds) and NOT working out - they will be 3 1/2 months behind when you get them back (& NEVER recover)". We have them come in before school at 7 PM 3 days a week to lift. In lower than HS level - you may not NEED to do this - YOUR CALL! Being both a football assistant and a baseball HC, I would tell my baseball guys in baseball season they don't have to go to football lifting even if it's before school. They can go if they want, but our head FB coach can take it up with me if he has a problem with that. My baseball team lifts in season so they are doing something. I don't force my baseball players that play other sports to do baseball things out of season. Many do on their own, but I would never make them. I think he was saying that if there isn't any weight training going on during baseball, then you should still get them into the weight room. Our baseball program doesn't lift during the season, so we ask that they come in at least two times a week. Because practice is after school, then they will have to come in early. Ideally, they will take the weights class, but there are only so many sections of that during the day.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 15:10:47 GMT -6
RE: Problems running deeper - I just got a good shot of that last night at our awards/recognition night. Took over the program last year, 4-6, this year we were 6-5 with a 1st round playoff loss. 1st time to playoffs since 2007. Biggest issue has been trying to change the culture here. Been working a lot of things to combat the 'we're nice so it's ok for us to suck' attitude. Thought it was mostly the players, and they are coming around. I didn't know that the admin side was so into that as well. Last night my DL coach, who is an 11-year Assistant Principal here, was MC'ing the affair. When he volunteered so quickly at our awards meeting I should have known something was up. He's the one that told me that he could not support me as the HC because of my anger management issues. I look up and he's got the script, which has the 'official' roster, and there is a guy in the varsity line that was booted from the team by the admin for failing a drug test. He was a big time help on the DL, if he had stayed good we would have won two more games and likely a couple of playoff games, he was that missing link that made the whole DL/front a lot better. So the kid is up in the line like nothing ever happened. DL coach talks about him like he was still on the team, just had an 'unfortunate incident' and that was all he said about that. Him being there is not an accident, he hasn't been on my distribution lists and communications. So here I am, watching this, going "What are we recognizing here, what are we rewarding?" I'm still trying to get my head around this. So the Admin takes the player away for being stupid, and yet another part of the Admin, an AP, brings the kid up and rewards him as if nothing had happened. He did the same thing with a JV player that got booted for grades. Now I'm realizing that this 'we're nice' attitude is much more deeply ingrained in the culture here than I ever imagined. It's not just the students, it's fully in the admin & staff side of things. I also don't know whether this was a full frontal assault on me and my position, or it's just something that "we" do here - "We don't care that you pimped over all your teammates by doing stupid stuff, just come on back for a big group hug." This is why they pay me the big bucks. This would make my blood boil.
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Post by freezeoption on Dec 6, 2016 20:23:57 GMT -6
hsrose, so wth did you do after that?
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Post by hsrose on Dec 6, 2016 20:38:31 GMT -6
I'm still working it. The AP was occupied today and nobody else was around. I'm doing the did I really see what I saw and what was the intention?
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Post by freezeoption on Dec 7, 2016 20:37:51 GMT -6
when you get a response let us know, I have had some crazy crap happen, but that is close to be one of the wildest things that I've heard
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Post by somecoach on Dec 7, 2016 22:43:42 GMT -6
I know I am a little late here but...
Three things to do when taking over a program:
1 Asses the situation realistically. Who are they and did they opt for a regime change? Are they just playing in a harder division? Do they have a losing culture?
2 When hiring a staff Loyalty > Experience/Knowledge. Be careful who you let into your circle. You can always teach someone the x's and o's... but you can't teach them how to not stab you in the back
3 recruiting recruiting RECRUITING. Get better players into the building.
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 8, 2016 4:36:40 GMT -6
I know I am a little late here but... Three things to do when taking over a program: 1 Asses the situation realistically. Who are they and did they opt for a regime change? Are they just playing in a harder division? Do they have a losing culture? 2 When hiring a staff Loyalty > Experience/Knowledge. Be careful who you let into your circle. You can always teach someone the x's and o's... but you can't teach them how to not stab you in the back 3 recruiting recruiting RECRUITING. Get better players into the building. What if you don't have a choice on who you bring in? You're limited because no teaching jobs are open so you bring back much of the failing old regime, or you just have to hire guys who don't need a job.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 8, 2016 6:08:02 GMT -6
I know I am a little late here but... Three things to do when taking over a program: 1 Asses the situation realistically. Who are they and did they opt for a regime change? Are they just playing in a harder division? Do they have a losing culture? 2 When hiring a staff Loyalty > Experience/Knowledge. Be careful who you let into your circle. You can always teach someone the x's and o's... but you can't teach them how to not stab you in the back 3 recruiting recruiting RECRUITING. Get better players into the building. What if you don't have a choice on who you bring in? You're limited because no teaching jobs are open so you bring back much of the failing old regime, or you just have to hire guys who don't need a job. quite honestly, if those are things that are necessary for you to be successful at that school, you simply don't take that job.
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 8, 2016 6:23:39 GMT -6
What if you don't have a choice on who you bring in? You're limited because no teaching jobs are open so you bring back much of the failing old regime, or you just have to hire guys who don't need a job. quite honestly, if those are things that are necessary for you to be successful at that school, you simply don't take that job. Probably, but this is a reality in most parts of the country. Districts can't simply create jobs to bring in coaches.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 8, 2016 6:27:53 GMT -6
quite honestly, if those are things that are necessary for you to be successful at that school, you simply don't take that job. Probably, but this is a reality in most parts of the country. Districts can't simply create jobs to bring in coaches. Absolutely understand. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame, and it is well known in coaching circles that there are more good coaches than there are schools/programs that deserve them. That doesn't change the fact that if you as an applicant feel you need to bring in your own staff to be successful and are not able to do so, you simply stop pursuing that job.
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Post by somecoach on Dec 8, 2016 9:02:47 GMT -6
2 When hiring a staff Loyalty > Experience/Knowledge. Be careful who you let into your circle. You can always teach someone the x's and o's... but you can't teach them how to not stab you in the back What if you don't have a choice on who you bring in? You're limited because no teaching jobs are open so you bring back much of the failing old regime, or you just have to hire guys who don't need a job. The old regime isn't always bad (I am currently one of the carryovers) my main point was be careful who you hire. I have seen some teams get really hurt by guys who were "mercenaries" and quite frankly only cared about themselves If anything the old regime guys could be a good hire. At the end of the day they are loyal to their almamater and want whats best for the program at large. Just becareful that they aren't looking to stage a coup d'etat
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Post by hsrose on Dec 8, 2016 15:33:14 GMT -6
RE: Admin on staff and talking about ineligible players - "Plausible Deniability"
Finally found the AP and talked with him. He did not know the players would be at the awards night. He thought the JV player was still eligible but that his broken hand (which he got by punching a locker after practice one day) was the reason. Nope, not the reason, it was the grades on the sheet that you gave me that made him ineligible. Somehow that 1.5 GPA didn't quite work to keep him on the team.
The other player, the one who got popped for drugs, just showed up and got in line. The AP did not have a prepared card for him and wasn't going to embarrass him in front of the crowd and friends. So he said some things off the cuff and that was that. The note card he had in his hand was for another player. Player's homelife is rough and he is living with one of the other senior players. So that is how he got awareness of the recognition night.
Still not happy about what went down, and this won't happen again, but now I know that at least it wasn't a full frontal assault by the AP.
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Post by freezeoption on Dec 10, 2016 16:00:59 GMT -6
all still sounds iffy to me, but I'm sure you have figured how to read him by now
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 10, 2016 17:23:56 GMT -6
What do you all think about a school that is in an affluent area, large school, chit team. They used to be good but aren't anymore. Not sure why, but I feel like they could be and should be.
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Post by jstephens on Dec 11, 2016 0:39:59 GMT -6
So, I'm potentially going to take over a program that hasn't won in 2 years. Have any of you been in a similar situation? And if so, what were your experiences? What was the first thing you did? Culture before scheme. Don't think you are coming in with a magic marker and changing the world. Get kids involved, keep it simple and fun. Demand excellent attitude and effort and eventually you will get in the winning side.
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Post by mrjvi on Dec 11, 2016 9:15:32 GMT -6
I just bought Jackson's book. Some good ideas for culture changing. Never too old to learn.
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 11, 2016 9:19:49 GMT -6
I just bought Jackson's book. Some good ideas for culture changing. Never too old to learn. I wish you could get it as just an ebook.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 10:50:27 GMT -6
What if you don't have a choice on who you bring in? You're limited because no teaching jobs are open so you bring back much of the failing old regime, or you just have to hire guys who don't need a job. The old regime isn't always bad (I am currently one of the carryovers) my main point was be careful who you hire. I have seen some teams get really hurt by guys who were "mercenaries" and quite frankly only cared about themselves If anything the old regime guys could be a good hire. At the end of the day they are loyal to their almamater and want whats best for the program at large. Just becareful that they aren't looking to stage a coup d'etat That is the big thing. If it's a perennially bad program, most of those guys played there and want the team to be successful. You know there's some dedication there if a guy's stuck around through 5-10 years of losing and BS just to get to coach at that school... but there's also the risk that he (or his buddy) may have been passed over for the job you've got or that he may be resistant to change just because he doesn't know any other way. Now, you'd think that being 1-9 or 2-8 for as long as anyone can remember would be enough proof that things have to change... but if that's all the football experience the assistants have ever had as players and coaches, they likely won't know exactly what to change or how to change it, so they'll all have their own ideas on the magic bullets or what attitude to set. They may think that the only key to getting better is to berate kids harder or run the facemelter or put a homer in charge. That's what you've got to worry about. In the end, a lot in this profession comes down to relationships: relationships with players, administrators, parents, and assistant coaches. When you go into a place like that, you've got to bring enthusiasm and focus on building those relationships from Day 1 if you want to last to Day 1000, and even then, those relationships are a 2 way street.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 11:07:00 GMT -6
What do you all think about a school that is in an affluent area, large school, chit team. They used to be good but aren't anymore. Not sure why, but I feel like they could be and should be. Be very, very wary of this. "Affluent area" means a lot of rich/spoiled parents who will be up your @$$ at every turn and don't like being told "no." It also means that if you tell them "no," some of them will go over your head and get it overruled by signing checks to the school or school board, or because they've signed these checks in the past. It also means their kids will be even more spoiled and think they know better than you because their daddy's a doctor, lawyer, or businessman and that 16 year old is driving a much nicer car to school than you do. "Large school" means the competition is probably going to be tough. Not good for a quick turnaround. It also means that, combined with the "affluent area," you're going to get a lot of micromanaging from administration because they have to be the best in all things, including test scores, media perception, etc. "Used to be good but aren't anymore" makes me think of the DCOhio thread. On top of the parents' meddling, imagine about 100 guys like that in your community with online platforms to throw you under the bus. Are they very good at individual sports where their parents hire private coaches, like tennis, wrestling, track, swimming, etc? Do they struggle in team sports like football, basketball, and baseball at the same time they excel there? That would also be a red flag to me. Personal experience with this stuff...
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 11, 2016 11:16:12 GMT -6
What do you all think about a school that is in an affluent area, large school, chit team. They used to be good but aren't anymore. Not sure why, but I feel like they could be and should be. Be very, very wary of this. "Affluent area" means a lot of rich/spoiled parents who will be up your @$$ at every turn and don't like being told "no." It also means that if you tell them "no," some of them will go over your head and get it overruled by signing checks to the school or school board, or because they've signed these checks in the past. It also means their kids will be even more spoiled and think they know better than you because their daddy's a doctor, lawyer, or businessman and that 16 year old is driving a much nicer car to school than you do. "Large school" means the competition is probably going to be tough. Not good for a quick turnaround. It also means that, combined with the "affluent area," you're going to get a lot of micromanaging from administration because they have to be the best in all things, including test scores, media perception, etc. "Used to be good but aren't anymore" makes me think of the DCOhio thread. On top of the parents' meddling, imagine about 100 guys like that in your community with online platforms to throw you under the bus. Are they very good at individual sports where their parents hire private coaches, like tennis, wrestling, track, swimming, etc? Do they struggle in team sports like football, basketball, and baseball at the same time they excel there? That would also be a red flag to me. Personal experience with this stuff... Yeah. Not a job I'm interested in. Just saw it and the gears were turning.
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Post by fantom on Dec 11, 2016 14:46:58 GMT -6
What do you all think about a school that is in an affluent area, large school, chit team. They used to be good but aren't anymore. Not sure why, but I feel like they could be and should be. Be very, very wary of this. "Affluent area" means a lot of rich/spoiled parents who will be up your @$$ at every turn and don't like being told "no." It also means that if you tell them "no," some of them will go over your head and get it overruled by signing checks to the school or school board, or because they've signed these checks in the past. It also means their kids will be even more spoiled and think they know better than you because their daddy's a doctor, lawyer, or businessman and that 16 year old is driving a much nicer car to school than you do. "Large school" means the competition is probably going to be tough. Not good for a quick turnaround. It also means that, combined with the "affluent area," you're going to get a lot of micromanaging from administration because they have to be the best in all things, including test scores, media perception, etc. "Used to be good but aren't anymore" makes me think of the DCOhio thread. On top of the parents' meddling, imagine about 100 guys like that in your community with online platforms to throw you under the bus. Are they very good at individual sports where their parents hire private coaches, like tennis, wrestling, track, swimming, etc? Do they struggle in team sports like football, basketball, and baseball at the same time they excel there? That would also be a red flag to me. Personal experience with this stuff... Two of the four teams that played in the state finals in the largest classifications were from large schools in affluent areas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 14:54:46 GMT -6
Two of the four teams that played in the state finals in the largest classifications were from large schools in affluent areas. I think that's how it is in most states. It certainly is in TN with Maryville dominating everyone every year and some of the suburban Nashville area schools. Large school and affluent area means money and an attractive place for athletes... but it means a lot of pressure and headaches. Those are the places that will fire you for "only" making it to the 3rd round every year...
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Post by Sonofahitch on Dec 19, 2016 18:53:49 GMT -6
Quoting Hugh Wyattt here..."Stop sucking!" Or, if you are a Cubs fan, The 2016 version, courtesy of Joe Maddon..."Try Not to Suck". To clarify, what Coach Wyatt meant by "stop sucking": identify the factors that greatly compound losing and eliminate them. For example, I took over a program back in 2009 that had won one game in the previous 3 years. One of the reasons that they were so woeful was that they ran the spread and were just awful at it. Lots of INTs and an abysmal completion rate. So, the offensive scheme they were running was making a bad team even worse because they kept giving the opposition extra possessions and every time they threw an incomplete pass, the clock stopped and left time for more scoring. So we went to the double wing. We ran the ball. Not always really well, but we dramatically reduced turnovers and succeeded in speeding up the game. Just by running the ball and not throwing INTs, we reduced the number of opponent possessions and kept scores more respectable. We weren't great that year. Ended up 3-6. But in 3 of the 6 games we lost, we were actually pretty competitive and it was a huge improvement over the previous 3 seasons. So I think that is where you should start. Why did they go winless for 2 years? What was going on? Were the ever good? Was it a 2-year hiccup or is there a long tradition of losing at the school?
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hwkfn1
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Post by hwkfn1 on Dec 20, 2016 6:50:12 GMT -6
Lots of patience is required. Don't tie your self-esteem to wins and losses. Be involved in the community. Develop positive relationships with the players. Stress fundamentals. Make them compete in other sports.
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Post by eaglemountie on Dec 20, 2016 9:16:04 GMT -6
1.) Find coaches that will be loyal, willing to put in time and work hard. Knowledge is secondary. 2.) Recruit the returning players and the hallways for the top 10-15 athletes in each class. 3.) Get all people from #1 and #2 in the weight room and start to build your culture of high expectations, high energy and high effort. 4.) Shun all individualism, praise all team first actions.
Once all 1-4 is established the rest is cake.
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Post by blb on Dec 20, 2016 10:13:06 GMT -6
Meeting with Superintendent of our school this afternoon. Our school and program have been a complete dumpster fire since 1951. We won 2 games in a season for the first time in 10 years last year, and finished with a winning record this year for the first time in 21 years. Yet thing are still a mess. We have no support from admin, teachers and we get little to no involvement from parents and community. Put yourself in my shoes, if you could ask him one thing, what would it be?
1) For your incentive bonus check for winning season
2) For strong recommendation for next job you're applying for
Seriously - would have to know more about your situation to give you a straight answer.
WHY was the program a "complete dumpster fire"? What do you NEED - i.e., his help in hiring teachers who are Football coaches when vacancies occur? Funding for a new weight room, or new equipment for existing one?
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Post by blb on Dec 20, 2016 10:48:20 GMT -6
Wow.
Dust off your resume, pech.
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