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Post by fantom on Dec 27, 2023 19:38:33 GMT -6
For a first-year program that according to you was a success, he has had an unusual amount of staff turnover. South Alabama- 17 wins over the past 2 seasons- currently has parted ways with 4 coaches. Florida has already parted ways with 2 defensive coaches and a S&C coach. In 2022, there were sixty (60) offensive coordinator changes and 46 defensive coordinator changes. Those are just off the front page of footballscoop. Again, it just seems to me that events and happenings gaining attention at CU happen everywhere with much less fanfare. And I could absolutely see older, more established or seasoned coaches not wanting to be around the Deion Sanders show. It is probably quite different than what they have done the past several decades. Lastly, it is entirely possible that CU and Deion will implode or at least not achieve success at the level that he and others want. But isn't that the case at say...Penn State right now? Florida Right now? Tex A&M last year? Michigan State last year etc? Explain how Penn State has imploded.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 27, 2023 19:44:58 GMT -6
South Alabama- 17 wins over the past 2 seasons- currently has parted ways with 4 coaches. Florida has already parted ways with 2 defensive coaches and a S&C coach. In 2022, there were sixty (60) offensive coordinator changes and 46 defensive coordinator changes. Those are just off the front page of footballscoop. Again, it just seems to me that events and happenings gaining attention at CU happen everywhere with much less fanfare. And I could absolutely see older, more established or seasoned coaches not wanting to be around the Deion Sanders show. It is probably quite different than what they have done the past several decades. Lastly, it is entirely possible that CU and Deion will implode or at least not achieve success at the level that he and others want. But isn't that the case at say...Penn State right now? Florida Right now? Tex A&M last year? Michigan State last year etc? Explain how Penn State has imploded. They fit the "haven't achieved success at the level Franklin and others want" not an implosion. While many of us coaches here can respect what Franklin is doing, lets be realistic. He wasn't brought there and isn't being paid to win only 61% of his conference games in the last 4 years or not beat OSU or UM etc. I think it that is a shame too, and wish the sportslandscape was not as stupid as it is. The reason I mentioned Penn State is that even if CU started performing like that- you would hear people say "Deion isn't winning National Titles...failure!"
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Post by blb on Dec 28, 2023 11:16:18 GMT -6
For a first-year program that according to you was a success, he has had an unusual amount of staff turnover. South Alabama- 17 wins over the past 2 seasons- currently has parted ways with 4 coaches. Florida has already parted ways with 2 defensive coaches and a S&C coach. In 2022, there were sixty (60) offensive coordinator changes and 46 defensive coordinator changes. Those are just off the front page of footballscoop. South Alabama isn't a first-year program like Sanders-Colorado. And the USA assistants aren't leaving on their own. Wommack is replacing them. Florida is also in second year under Napier and by their standards haven't been successful. And again those coaches aren't leaving of their own volition like at CU. Bad examples.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2023 11:24:56 GMT -6
South Alabama- 17 wins over the past 2 seasons- currently has parted ways with 4 coaches. Florida has already parted ways with 2 defensive coaches and a S&C coach. In 2022, there were sixty (60) offensive coordinator changes and 46 defensive coordinator changes. Those are just off the front page of footballscoop. South Alabama isn't a first-year program like Sanders-Colorado. And the USA assistants aren't leaving on their own. Wommack is replacing them. Florida is also in second year under Napier and by their standards haven't been successful. And again those coaches aren't leaving of their own volition like at CU. Bad examples. What makes you think the CU situation is coaches leaving of their own volition? He may not be firing, but it could be a clear case of making it known they should go. Just like the Spring to Fall player exodus. Coaching turnover happens everywhere. Not sure why anyone with knowledge of the industry would look to point at CU and say "AHA... LOOK AT THIS". Of course, coaches do that here regarding certain offenses too so I guess it is natural.
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Post by blb on Dec 28, 2023 12:24:22 GMT -6
South Alabama isn't a first-year program like Sanders-Colorado. And the USA assistants aren't leaving on their own. Wommack is replacing them. Florida is also in second year under Napier and by their standards haven't been successful. And again those coaches aren't leaving of their own volition like at CU. Bad examples. What makes you think the CU situation is coaches leaving of their own volition? He may not be firing, but it could be a clear case of making it known they should go. Just like the Spring to Fall player exodus. Coaching turnover happens everywhere. Not sure why anyone with knowledge of the industry would look to point at CU and say "AHA... LOOK AT THIS". Of course, coaches do that here regarding certain offenses too so I guess it is natural. First - I don't have anything against Sanders. I think he proved he can coach at Jackson State. Nor do I particularly care about Colorado football. In fact I think it was an interesting story for CFB, and going from one win prior to his arrival to four is improvement in anybody's book. My point is if he hired a staff that was "bought in" to his way and the future of Buffaloes' football there wouldn't be so much change after just one season. And having to hire so many new coaches makes it almost like starting over perhaps. Having been a college coach yourself, you should be able to relate to that.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2023 12:29:38 GMT -6
What makes you think the CU situation is coaches leaving of their own volition? He may not be firing, but it could be a clear case of making it known they should go. Just like the Spring to Fall player exodus. Coaching turnover happens everywhere. Not sure why anyone with knowledge of the industry would look to point at CU and say "AHA... LOOK AT THIS". Of course, coaches do that here regarding certain offenses too so I guess it is natural. First - I don't have anything against Sanders. I think he proved he can coach at Jackson State. Nor do I particularly care about Colorado football. In fact I think it was an interesting story for CFB, and going from one win prior to his arrival to four is improvement in anybody's book. My point is if he hired a staff that was "bought in" to his way and the future of Buffaloes' football there wouldn't be so much change after just one season. And having to hire so many new coaches makes it almost like starting over perhaps. Having been a college coach yourself, you should be able to relate to that. I think it is just perhaps evidence that the guys he brought in originally were not on the same page. Or perhaps it is not the most enjoyable environment. Both can be true and yet still have success.
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Post by tog on Dec 28, 2023 18:03:55 GMT -6
I don't think those things are remotely similar coach. it will crater due to lack of integrity
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Post by tog on Dec 28, 2023 18:05:13 GMT -6
But coach, that happens to many programs each and every year. I have noticed the last few weeks that many things that happen EVERYWHERE are only "things" when they happen at CU. "OH MY GOODNESS.. DEION HAD A PLAYER FLIP!!!!". For a first-year program that according to you was a success, he has had an unusual amount of staff turnover. I wouldn't want to coach there for any amount of money or publicity for future jobs based on hype
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Post by fantom on Dec 28, 2023 18:35:54 GMT -6
I don't think those things are remotely similar coach. it will crater due to lack of integrity Don't want to sound cynical but lack of integrity doesn't seem to be an impediment to coaching at the D 1 level.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2023 18:41:54 GMT -6
I don't think those things are remotely similar coach. it will crater due to lack of integrity In what Universe do you follow division one revenue generating athletics coach? It very well may crater, but citing a lack of integrity in that environment as the reason just won't hunt. And coach, with all due respect, (and you are due a great deal of respect!) I still maintain if Sanders was running an undercenter option offense you and others would be singing praises.
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Post by tog on Dec 28, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -6
it will crater due to lack of integrity Don't want to sound cynical but lack of integrity doesn't seem to be an impediment to coaching at the D 1 level. it does for programs I respect
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Post by tog on Dec 28, 2023 18:57:44 GMT -6
it will crater due to lack of integrity In what Universe do you follow division one revenue generating athletics coach? It very well may crater, but citing a lack of integrity in that environment as the reason just won't hunt. And coach, with all due respect, (and you are due a great deal of respect!) I still maintain if Sanders was running an undercenter option offense you and others would be singing praises. thank you but that isn't cool enough these days sadly, and doubt he knows a damn thing about it really
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Post by blb on Dec 31, 2023 7:36:22 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 31, 2023 8:25:57 GMT -6
I don’t see how your bringing up turnover on the staff is an indication of a lack of success THIS year. Red flag in that the way things are being done at CU rubs some the wrong way? Probably. EDIT-- to add to this, apparently Sanders is on the verge of adding several more NFL style defensive coaches to the staff, which probably led to Coach Kelly leaving.
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Post by tog on Dec 31, 2023 17:24:45 GMT -6
I don’t see how your bringing up turnover on the staff is an indication of a lack of success THIS year. Red flag in that the way things are being done at CU rubs some the wrong way? Probably. any coach worth his salt is getting the {censored} out of there
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 31, 2023 17:42:30 GMT -6
I don’t see how your bringing up turnover on the staff is an indication of a lack of success THIS year. Red flag in that the way things are being done at CU rubs some the wrong way? Probably. any coach worth his salt is getting the {censored} out of there As are most of the kids. You can't go to the media and continually tell them your players suck and then expect kids to play for you.
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Post by tog on Dec 31, 2023 17:50:55 GMT -6
any coach worth his salt is getting the {censored} out of there As are most of the kids. You can't go to the media and continually tell them your players suck and then expect kids to play for you. he's an asshooooole
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2024 20:54:46 GMT -6
To go a bit further regarding the staff changes:
I can easily see a conversation such as "Hey Charles, its been pretty well publicized that I am bringing in Warren [Sapp] and I am looking at several other NFL connections." And in return Kelly says "I am an AU alum, I want to be in position to get that job when it opens...not to mention I am a college guy and you seem to be building more of an NFL style organization. It may be best for both if we part ways here"
I think that could very well be the impetus behind the staff turnover. As Sanders is growing more experienced with the current D1 Landscape (which is changing on EVERYONE minute to minute, and looks MUCH more like the NFL) his plans might not be what guys who have done things a certain way for 20-30 years want to do.
I think it is going to be interesting to see how it unfolds, but rest assured the NCAA Div 1 FBS Power 5 football landscape is far from what guys like Tim Brewster, Charles Kelly, Sean Lewis and Nick Williams etc have been doing for their careers. None of them have really spent much if any time in an environment like today, where we saw:
once highly touted Clemson recruit DJ uiagalelei pick his 3rd school in 3 years Arkansas's key offensive player and 3 year starter at QB with over 8,000 yards passing KJ Jefferson move out to UCF Forida's 2nd leading rusher and touchdown leader Travis Etienne go to Georgia Ohio States Starting Quarterback Kyle McCord leave to go to Syracuse Oklahoma's Starting Quarterback Dillon Gabriel leave to go to Oregon Mississippi State's Starting Quarterback leave to go to Washington etc. etc.
It is just a different world than the college football world just 3 years ago, and those with deep roots in the college game may not be able to adjust quick enough.
We will see.
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Post by tog on Jan 1, 2024 23:57:05 GMT -6
To go a bit further regarding the staff changes: I can easily see a conversation such as "Hey Charles, its been pretty well publicized that I am bringing in Warren [Sapp] and I am looking at several other NFL connections." And in return Kelly says "I am an AU alum, I want to be in position to get that job when it opens...not to mention I am a college guy and you seem to be building more of an NFL style organization. It may be best for both if we part ways here" I think that could very well be the impetus behind the staff turnover. As Sanders is growing more experienced with the current D1 Landscape (which is changing on EVERYONE minute to minute, and looks MUCH more like the NFL) his plans might not be what guys who have done things a certain way for 20-30 years want to do. I think it is going to be interesting to see how it unfolds, but rest assured the NCAA Div 1 FBS Power 5 football landscape is far from what guys like Tim Brewster, Charles Kelly, Sean Lewis and Nick Williams etc have been doing for their careers. None of them have really spent much if any time in an environment like today, where we saw: once highly touted Clemson recruit DJ uiagalelei pick his 3rd school in 3 years Arkansas's key offensive player and 3 year starter at QB with over 8,000 yards passing KJ Jefferson move out to UCF Forida's 2nd leading rusher and touchdown leader Travis Etienne go to Georgia Ohio States Starting Quarterback Kyle McCord leave to go to Syracuse Oklahoma's Starting Quarterback Dillon Gabriel leave to go to Oregon Mississippi State's Starting Quarterback leave to go to Washington etc. etc. It is just a different world than the college football world just 3 years ago, and those with deep roots in the college game may not be able to adjust quick enough. We will see. in none of those worlds is anyone that want's to get better says hey let's go play for deion lol, if they doy then then are not a nice word
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Jan 2, 2024 1:30:36 GMT -6
once highly touted Clemson recruit DJ uiagalelei pick his 3rd school in 3 years Arkansas's key offensive player and 3 year starter at QB with over 8,000 yards passing KJ Jefferson move out to UCF Forida's 2nd leading rusher and touchdown leader Travis Etienne go to Georgia Ohio States Starting Quarterback Kyle McCord leave to go to Syracuse Oklahoma's Starting Quarterback Dillon Gabriel leave to go to Oregon Mississippi State's Starting Quarterback leave to go to Washington etc. etc.
It is just a different world than the college football world just 3 years ago, and those with deep roots in the college game may not be able to adjust quick enough.
We will see.
[/quote]
DJ likely left for exposure or because his coach left or was going to be replaced. Jefferson was going to be replaced. Etienne is because Florida bad. McCord was going to be replaced. Gabriel was going to be replaced. State QB was going to be replaced.
None of those reasons are new and most of it from a log jam from that extra year.
Yes his first year a success, but lets not act like Deon has hand on the pulse of college football and that these guys that left are out of touch to justify these moves.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 2, 2024 5:42:59 GMT -6
Whether it is CU or somewhere else, I cannot imagine coaching a roster that can totally flip every year. IF I was an FBS assistant or HC and I had made my money I would seriously consider quitting, moving "down" to a FCS level job or even D2 or D3 jsut to get away from it all. Call me old fashioned but a lot of what is going on is ridiculous.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2024 6:03:57 GMT -6
DJ likely left for exposure or because his coach left or was going to be replaced. Jefferson was going to be replaced. Etienne is because Florida bad. McCord was going to be replaced. Gabriel was going to be replaced. State QB was going to be replaced. None of those reasons are new and most of it from a log jam from that extra year. Yes his first year a success, but lets not act like Deon has hand on the pulse of college football and that these guys that left are out of touch to justify these moves. --Will Rogers holds nearly all of the Mississippi State passing records, as well as some SEC records and is transferring to a school playing for the CFP championship. --Gabriel led OU to 10-2 season after accumulating almost 7000 yards and 55 TD vs 12 ints along with almost 700 yards rushing and 18 TDs rushing in 2 years and is going to a top 8 school that finished second in its conference to an eventual championship game participant. Players with those types of performances "getting replaced"? Even if true for all of those guys isn't THAT in and of itself "new" with regards to the college football landscape? --McCord went 11-1 and was the starting QB for OSU while it was ranking #1 in the country for a portion of the season and is going to Syracuse because he didn't feel the OSU coaching staff was committed to as a QB. That in and of itself is "new", and in the past what we would have seen is McCord going to an FCS school. --Etienne accumulating over 1,400 yards as an underclassmen deciding to transfer to the schools biggest rival because UF was "bad"? That too just wasn't a common event. I am not suggesting that Sanders is playing Grandmaster level chess while others are playing checkers. I am simply pointing out that college football in 2024 is very different than college football in just say 2019 and perhaps Sanders is doing things differently than guys who have done things a certain way for 15, 20, 30 years. And I still maintain that if Sanders had come in and installed a triple option offense and these things (coaching turnover, player turnover, recruit commitment flipping etc) happened, several of the more vocal detractors on this board would be singing Sander's praises and mocking the coaches and players who left. It is so curious to me that one of the most often referenced concepts on this message board is that a smart plan is to do something "different" when your program doesn't have all the best players. But what different apparently only means is "when you don't have the best players, you should run an offense that teams with all the best players 45-50 years ago ran".
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2024 6:17:32 GMT -6
Whether it is CU or somewhere else, I cannot imagine coaching a roster that can totally flip every year. IF I was an FBS assistant or HC and I had made my money I would seriously consider quitting, moving "down" to a FCS level job or even D2 or D3 jsut to get away from it all. Call me old fashioned but a lot of what is going on is ridiculous. It is definitely a much different time than just five years ago. I do wonder if the Covid year expiration will provide a bit more stability, but I also can see that this genie is out of the bottle, and I don’t know if it will be limited to FBS ball in the future
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 2, 2024 9:26:14 GMT -6
The genie is out and unless the NCAA wants to grab the genie but the nutz and force it back in we are not going back. I have handled a lot of D1 recruiting of HS players. When coaches visit they will take time to talk and I have never heard one coach say they like the portal or NIL. Most that I have talked to are not against players getting compensated in some manner or players being allowed to teransfer. The best idea I heard came from a D1 coach who had coached at all levels working his way up. He said pay them $30,000/year and they cannot touch the money until they graduate. All players no matter who they are. When they come out of school they have $120K+ to start their life with. His comment was giving a million dollars to an 18 year old is a recipe for disaster. If they transfer that money stays with thenm.
He thought as far as eligibility goes: If your at school A and the HC leaves you can transfer. You get one transfer FBS to FBS. He said the NCAA needs to regulate who can transfer when because it's like every player is a potential free agent every season. Like you have to be in school for two years then you can move on (unless some other criteria is met). Something to make it so there is a cycle to it.
Not bad ideas. The genie is out, but I think even in Alladin the genie had certain rules he had to play by.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2024 10:20:15 GMT -6
The genie is out and unless the NCAA wants to grab the genie but the nutz and force it back in we are not going back. I have handled a lot of D1 recruiting of HS players. When coaches visit they will take time to talk and I have never heard one coach say they like the portal or NIL. Most that I have talked to are not against players getting compensated in some manner or players being allowed to teransfer. The best idea I heard came from a D1 coach who had coached at all levels working his way up. He said pay them $30,000/year and they cannot touch the money until they graduate. All players no matter who they are. When they come out of school they have $120K+ to start their life with. His comment was giving a million dollars to an 18 year old is a recipe for disaster. If they transfer that money stays with thenm. He thought as far as eligibility goes: If your at school A and the HC leaves you can transfer. You get one transfer FBS to FBS. He said the NCAA needs to regulate who can transfer when because it's like every player is a potential free agent every season. Like you have to be in school for two years then you can move on (unless some other criteria is met). Something to make it so there is a cycle to it. Not bad ideas. The genie is out, but I think even in Alladin the genie had certain rules he had to play by. I wonder if that coach would have been Ok with similar rules for coaches. Pay all HC the average of the top 5 paid professors (not administrators) on campus. Asst coaches make a percentage of that. Regulate the movement of coaches etc. I firmly believe that had college football not become an arms race with the adults (coaches and administrators ) getting rich that exploded once TV contracts flooded the sport with previously unheard of sums of money, college football would look different today. I mean look at Brian Kelly. He left ND while the were still legitimately a potential CFP team. Had the results of 1 or 2 games been different, ND would have been announced as part of the CFP while he was cleaning out his office. Lincoln Riley, very similar, telling all his players “Norman will be the mecca of College Football” and then 2 weeks later telling kids “Los Angeles will be the mecca of college football”. Ed Orgeron and Jimbo Fisher are getting enormous sums of money to not coach. Aren’t the UTs (Tex and Tenn) still paying multiple previous coaching buyouts? Many power 5 athletic programs now employee a staff of close to if not over 50-60 people just dealing with football NOT COUNTING THE COACHES! It seems that anytime anyone brings up their disdain or disappointment with the current state of college athletics, it is always because of the athletes. Edited to add- I believe they already only have one transfer from FBS to FBS until they graduate. Then they can transfer to a second school.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 2, 2024 10:24:02 GMT -6
The genie is out and unless the NCAA wants to grab the genie but the nutz and force it back in we are not going back. I have handled a lot of D1 recruiting of HS players. When coaches visit they will take time to talk and I have never heard one coach say they like the portal or NIL. Most that I have talked to are not against players getting compensated in some manner or players being allowed to teransfer. The best idea I heard came from a D1 coach who had coached at all levels working his way up. He said pay them $30,000/year and they cannot touch the money until they graduate. All players no matter who they are. When they come out of school they have $120K+ to start their life with. His comment was giving a million dollars to an 18 year old is a recipe for disaster. If they transfer that money stays with thenm. He thought as far as eligibility goes: If your at school A and the HC leaves you can transfer. You get one transfer FBS to FBS. He said the NCAA needs to regulate who can transfer when because it's like every player is a potential free agent every season. Like you have to be in school for two years then you can move on (unless some other criteria is met). Something to make it so there is a cycle to it. Not bad ideas. The genie is out, but I think even in Alladin the genie had certain rules he had to play by. Can I bring up "contracts" again?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2024 10:29:43 GMT -6
The genie is out and unless the NCAA wants to grab the genie but the nutz and force it back in we are not going back. I have handled a lot of D1 recruiting of HS players. When coaches visit they will take time to talk and I have never heard one coach say they like the portal or NIL. Most that I have talked to are not against players getting compensated in some manner or players being allowed to teransfer. The best idea I heard came from a D1 coach who had coached at all levels working his way up. He said pay them $30,000/year and they cannot touch the money until they graduate. All players no matter who they are. When they come out of school they have $120K+ to start their life with. His comment was giving a million dollars to an 18 year old is a recipe for disaster. If they transfer that money stays with thenm. He thought as far as eligibility goes: If your at school A and the HC leaves you can transfer. You get one transfer FBS to FBS. He said the NCAA needs to regulate who can transfer when because it's like every player is a potential free agent every season. Like you have to be in school for two years then you can move on (unless some other criteria is met). Something to make it so there is a cycle to it. Not bad ideas. The genie is out, but I think even in Alladin the genie had certain rules he had to play by. Can I bring up "contracts" again? Sure. But as I mentioned last time, that will then formally declare that the student athletes are employees, and for a myriad of reasons, the NCAA and schools want to desperately avoid that. Not to mention, don’t coaches have contracts?
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 2, 2024 12:49:12 GMT -6
once highly touted Clemson recruit DJ uiagalelei pick his 3rd school in 3 years Arkansas's key offensive player and 3 year starter at QB with over 8,000 yards passing KJ Jefferson move out to UCF Forida's 2nd leading rusher and touchdown leader Travis Etienne go to Georgia Ohio States Starting Quarterback Kyle McCord leave to go to Syracuse Oklahoma's Starting Quarterback Dillon Gabriel leave to go to Oregon Mississippi State's Starting Quarterback leave to go to Washington etc. etc. It is just a different world than the college football world just 3 years ago, and those with deep roots in the college game may not be able to adjust quick enough. We will see. DJ likely left for exposure or because his coach left or was going to be replaced. Jefferson was going to be replaced. Etienne is because Florida bad. McCord was going to be replaced. Gabriel was going to be replaced. State QB was going to be replaced. None of those reasons are new and most of it from a log jam from that extra year. Yes his first year a success, but lets not act like Deon has hand on the pulse of college football and that these guys that left are out of touch to justify these moves.[/quote] Gabriel left because Jeff Lebby took the Miss st job. Lebby is who recruited Gabriel while at UCF to be Mckenzie Milton replacement when he was done. When Heupel left to Tenn, Lebby went to oklahoma to be the OC and gabriel went with him. Etienne left because there is 2 recruits coming in that are napiers guys, who will tote the rock a great deal. and fla is bad.
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Post by fantom on Jan 2, 2024 13:27:35 GMT -6
If the question is whether Sanders' first year was a success I think that the fact that so far there are six pages talking about him and CU football says that it was. Before he got there nobody who wasn't an alum or lived there cared about CU football.
Are his methods sustainable? Who knows? But isn't that the answer with every new coach?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2024 14:08:23 GMT -6
Gabriel left because Jeff Lebby took the Miss st job. Lebby is who recruited Gabriel while at UCF to be Mckenzie Milton replacement when he was done. When Heupel left to Tenn, Lebby went to oklahoma to be the OC and gabriel went with him. Etienne left because there is 2 recruits coming in that are napiers guys, who will tote the rock a great deal. and fla is bad. Regardless of internet speculation as to why these transfers took place, I still ask..isn't that relatively new and different? That was my point. No NCAA coach has ever operated under these conditions. They are quite different than the way Brewster and Kelly have operated for their career lengthy collegiate careers as well different than the conditions the younger guys played in/cut their teeth in as coaches. It resembles the NFL and professional situations more and more, which might be why some of these guys are leaving CU. They seem to be doing it in an amicable manner. In this day and age, I really can't see anyone leaving with bad blood and it not getting out, particularly with the microscope on that program right now. I was just bringing up a counterpoint to blb's post which seemed to be insinuating that the program was struggling or was not a success this year because of turnover.
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